Mastering Loud.. don't hate me!

[theBaldfather]

Hey all, I'm a newbie and I'm pumped to be getting advice from people who know more than I do.

I know this creates torrents of foul language from people who actually enjoy dynamics, but I'm where most engineers are when I say that my clients want their final mixes to be blistering loud. I've felt the pressure and I know that it's not the answer, but what do you do when your client wants it just a bit louder? I've played around with compressing the whole mix twice with multiband compressors, taking out any frequencies I can spare and limiting, but I'm still unable to make the mix loud and good at the same time. (suprise) Have any of you found tricks to help you with this sometimes necessary evil?

Grant

[wedge]

I'm no expert, but I'd listen to American Idiot, find out who mastered it, then pick their brain somehow. I was quite impressed by how bloody loud it is, yet still musical and not squeezed to death. I thought it wasn't possible until I heard that disc. Apparently, it is...

[mysteriousmammal]

Haven't done it myself 8), but I've been told that you can get it loud by a combination of EQ, L2 or L3, Multiband compression, and clipping the converters on the way in. The converter clipping method is apparently rather common. EQ-wise, get that sub bass out of there!

[I'm Painting Again]

If your client wants it louder better make it louder or they may not be your client anymore..

I have no idea whats going to work for you in your situation..but I'm sure every way of making it louder is used everyday to make records "competitive" or whatever they call it..

EQ, Compression, Limiting, Line Amplification, format conversions (like going to tape, another tape and or to and from back to digital or vice versa, etc.), on a DAW with a plug-in, on 5 Billion $'s worth of gear, whatever..

there are no tricks that I know of just tools and ideas and creative ways of applying them to your work..

without knowing the specifics of what your doing and what you have available its impossible to give any useful advice..

[3db@1K]

L2 ,,,

[spankenstein]

I've had good results with endorphin and the Kjaerhause master limiter and a plugin called Peak Slammer. They can be very brutal but that's what sometimes makes a paycheck smile.

[cgarges]

How many of you guys are sending stuff out to be mastered and asking for it to come back loud?

Just curious.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[iamredarrow]

I sent stuff to Alan Douches recently and he made it as loud as any other commercial CD, but still preserved a good sense of mix balance- made it better, actually. somehow he made my snare more consistent, but not sampled.

For quick at-home mastering I just use Vintage Warmer with 0 drive and 30% knee; it crams everything up to 0.001 in a heartbeat.

[Mark Alan Miller]

I gotta say, there is a window of "loud" (that is, low peak-to-average ratio) on CDs for most program material that is optimum. Some engineers, and some tools can push this window higher, but all will eventually push beyond the point where one cannot argue that the transient information is getting wrecked more than the extra volume is worth it, at least if you demand them to...
Please, please try and educate your clients that having the CD on the "better" side of loud is, in the long term, better than on the "worse" side. Explain to them that overly loud CDs with completely wrecked transient information A) will not sound better or louder on radio than if there was, say, 2db more dynamic range, and B) overly limited CDs are fatiguing for many listeners, and this could cause a listener to actually not want to listen to their CD all the way through (i.e. it might make a listener turn their CD off!) Remind them also that if a listener likes it, they won't take it off, but surely will if they don't - but that's about likeability the music, not the volume. A louder CD won't make their music any better. Just louder. So, encourage them to allow it to be in a "loud" but "good" range, and assure them that a couple extra db "louder" won't nessesarily do any real good, and could possibly actually damage the sound on radio and the listenability over time in the CD player.

A great guideline I ask mastering engineers to use when the client insists on really really loud is "get it as loud as you can, where you're really starting to damage stuff, then back it off 2 or 3 db..." I find, depending on the program material, that that range yeilds a great compromise; it's still loud as all get out, but has transient clarity and punch. Often, when you A/B the two, even though the 2db lower one sounds a little bit quieter, the reaction in the room with the clients is "wow - 'B' (the lower one) has so much more punch"!

This topic has been beaten to death, not just here, but everywhere. Even MIX ran an article on it recently. For all appearances, the world is finally waking up that there is a comfortable zone to be found for loudness vs decent dynamics. Education has been key in this already... let's continue.

In other words, sure, make it loud for your clients (or yourself), but talk to them about it too. When you explain it, anyone with any reason in their cranium will understand. I promise!

Here's two great links to learn more:
http://64.33.101.211/schmorg/dynamic-range.htm
http://www.broadcastpapers.com/radio/Om ... pens01.htm

[digital eagle audio]

my studio sends most of our clients' shit to the kitchen, i believe specifically because they have a more musical approach.

i actually am shopping for a masterer for my personal project, and one of the things i am very careful to make clear is that i don't expect my product to "compete" commercially. i figure that the type of folks that will like my shit are the type of folks that will actively listen. and being that i don't expect to get any financial return on this record, i'm perfectly happy not competing. i'd rather listen to it in ten years and be happy with what i hear.

[digital eagle audio]

umm, i think this is related: how many of y'all put a stereo compressor on the bus for mixdown?
i put a 33609 over the mix, just to control the absolute peaks.

[theBaldfather]

Thanks for all your input! I know it can be a touchy subject, and I'm just looking for tricks that people have found that help it get loud without ruining the mix. For the record I use mostly wave plugins the L2, the linear MB compressor and the linear EQ. I've also found that the quality of arrangement and the quality of the mix both matter a great deal on being able to make it loud and listenable. Hopefully some day I'll have clients that can afford to send it off to other places, but for the time being, I'll keep getting practice and learning tricks.

Oh for the record.. I usually do mix with a stereo compressor. I find that it helps me get a slightly better vision of the mix for how it will finally sound. I'm starting to back it off though, so I can learn to mix with nothing at all...

By the way, great links mark.

[8th_note]

If I know my client wants it loud at the very beginning, that's a big help. My goal is to make the final limiter do as little work as possible. Here's what I do:

1) Record the individual tracks as loud as possible to begin with. I don't normally use compression when tracking (I have a DAW) but I will use compression with a high ratio and high threshold on a few tracks to get a higher volume if I know I will be pushing things at the end.
2) During mixing use more compression on the individual tracks than normal (I mix in the box), particulaly on the drum tracks. I'll route the drums to a group and use a compressor with a fast attack, high ratio, and high threshold to knock down peaks that would keep me from turning the master volume up a few db. On most songs there seems to be just a few drum hits that are way above the average. If necessary I'll manually go in and cut the volume on those individual hits.
3) Use a multiband compressor on the master buss. I use Waves C4. It lets me get the gain a little louder and seems to glue everything together.
4) I have Ozone for mastering and it has a decent limiter that I like a little better than the L2 plug. I also play with the harmonics module and the eq to somewhat compensate for the limiting nasties. I push it up as far as I can stand it and then I burn a CD and listen on several other systems. I usually then back off a little and call it good.

Even after all this I can't get it as loud as American Idiot but at least I can get it in the ballpark and still have it sound decent. It only makes sense that a mastering house with megabuck equipment and excellent skills should be able to get a few more db.

[Dave Nutz]

with some careful multiband compression and nocth filtering some unneeded freqs, ive gotten things pretty darn loud.

the L2 daisy chained in afterwards probably doesnt hurt. try the C4 for multiband.


Or if you want to get really brutal, assinine volume, get soundforge and wave hammer everything to death...its fucking awesome :ar15:


EDIT: sometimes, when im mixing via an analogue board, insert a limiter on the LRBuss, keep the levels moderate, then slam with multiband compression + limiting in software.

[sleep over jack]

CLIPPING THE CONVERTERS?

WRONG.