no-no? Recommending mics if it's not yr session (yr ax only)

[???????]

if a person gets offended by somebody voicing their opinion in a professional manner, chances are they're a bit of a douche.

Words to live by!

[knobtwirler]

First off, about the comments concerning a 57 on a jazz guitar, I would use it without question. I would record the entire jazz band with 57s if I wanted to, and it would sound great. But people get used to seeing certain things that they are familiar with and make them comfortable from past experience.
On the other hand, I've alway been taught to leave my first option open as a recording engineer before setting up mics, which is to ask the player what mic they would like to use. If they have experience and know and are not on the rag, they will tell exactly what mic will fall in lline with their perfect sound and comfort level. When a mic become an extension of an instrument or amplifier for a musician, choosing the wrong mic becomes analogous to moving a Marshall amp in the room for the jazz guitarist and expecting him/her to play comfortably.
An engineer should never be offended or put off during setup time from suggestions about the microphone. After things have been recorded it becomes much more of a production issue and comments from the players tend to be a bit more awkward.

[floid]

When a mic become an extension of an instrument or amplifier for a musician, choosing the wrong mic becomes analogous to moving a Marshall amp in the room for the jazz guitarist and expecting him/her to play comfortably.

i think this is a great way of looking at it. But then again,

The way I miced the guitar fit the music which was a piano, guitar, vocal song. He probably now asks for B and K mics from now on.

sometimes it's easy to fall into the trap of listening to your own sound, rather than the place it occupies in the mix. there was recently a line in another topic to the effect that "your drummer mixed this, right?" i've done shoddy mixes of my band for the same reason.
my 2cts

[knobtwirler]

Musicians are notorious for wanting their instruments to sound big and amazing when they are still studio novices. I like to capture nice lush sounds, knowing I can always sculpt them down to little wisps later if needed. However, if the guitarist loved his sound at first, then was surprised because somebody else mixed it into a little fly buzzing in the left speaker, he won't hate me for it.

[chris harris]

I think that if it's your band, then sure, offer your input about the recorded sound. If you're hired to play guitar, just play guitar. The engineer will often be making mic/pre/converter choices based on other elements already in the mix or even elements to be added later. Unless you've been heavily involved in pre prod, you couldn't possibly know what sound will be best for what parts. I'd suggest playing whatever guitar the producer puts in your hands. If the producer starts adjusting knobs and switches on your guitar or amp, don't worry about it. You've been hired to play, right?

You might think that mic x sounds better on your guitar in ANY scenario than mic y does. But, you'd be wrong.

[???????]

I think that if it's your band, then sure, offer your input about the recorded sound. If you're hired to play guitar, just play guitar. The engineer will often be making mic/pre/converter choices based on other elements already in the mix or even elements to be added later.

I agree totally. These are good points.

Unless you've been heavily involved in pre prod, you couldn't possibly know what sound will be best for what parts. I'd suggest playing whatever guitar the producer puts in your hands. If the producer starts adjusting knobs and switches on your guitar or amp, don't worry about it. You've been hired to play, right?

I also agree, most of the time. Sometimes, however, the person paying for the session didn't hire a producer. They might have a little bit of money but be green around the edges, and there's no producer there to make a final call. I've been in more than a few situations like this.

You might think that mic x sounds better on your guitar in ANY scenario than mic y does. But, you'd be wrong.

Yes, this much I do know. However, I've done a bit of recording in big studios and due to my curious nature asked a bunch of questions so i've sort of developed a sense for which mic does what as far as most of the more common ones go. I've been tempted to make suggestions (to this day never have) and the suggestions in my mind are different many times.

[JohnDavisNYC]

An engineer who gets pissed off about a musician requesting a different mic is probably a little too insecure to be running a session. I have a very nice upright bass that I take to sessions if I'm hired to play on something... I also know where and how the instrument speaks and what sort of microphone and placement work well with it.... now granted, I know enough about engineering that I won't request a specific mic, unless I know that A) they have it B) it sounds better on my bass than the current choice, and C) it's not being used on anything else... like, I'm not picky, but if the engineer puts a rode nt2 on my bass, but there is a 414 in the corner not being used, I'll ask for it, because I know that it is better for my bass and my playing... as far as positioning, I'll usually just move the mic to the part of my bass that sounds the best... if the engineer puts it RIGHT in front of the F-hole, I'll just move it up a few inches, to a spot that is less boomy on my bass. In that case, I don't think I'm being an ass, just making his job easier so he doesn't have to use a multiband compressor to get rid of the 15db boom at 110/220hz everytime I hit the open A string.

again, it all depends on the situation... if it's a big, crazy session, and the engineer looks stressed, I won't even sweat it. It's all in HOW and WHY you're asking for a different mic...

cheers,
john

[ryanlikestorock]

As an engineer, I've had musicians suggest microphones several times. I'm never offended and at least half the time it's the right mic for the job. If you sound like you know what you're talking about and limit your "help" to just this decision, there shouldn't be a problem.

It's also all about delivery. I assume that because you're posting this question in the first place, you probably have enough sense of timing and whatnot to do it right.

[AnalogElectric]

I used to have a problem with requests like that but I realized if I have a hang-up about something like that it becomes counter-productive.

Someone mentioned it earlier where it could foreshadow further complications down the line with that specific person (ie - the mix will never be right, for them). The catch-22 is if I don't go with their suggested mic, he or she will hate the tone no matter how huge it sounds in the mix (just out of spite - unconsciously).

Although, it could work out the opposite way.

To alleviate any issues, I'll mic up a source with their suggested mic and the one (or more) I want to use. Then during a mix, we choose the best one(s).

In general I tend to over-mic everything anyways... so when a situation like that presents itself, I don't go off the deep-end, or poo-poo any suggestions.

In fact, I've been asking (especially guitar players) if they have a favorite mic for their rig. Some do and some don't. 9 times out of 10 he or she will say "I dunno... a 57?"

If we have the time I tell clients they can ask me anything or if they see a mic sitting around that's not being used if it would work well on a given instrument.

I'll either tell them why it won't sound good (cuz it might be a mic with a crystal element and the source wouldn't benefit from that) or I might say, "Cool, lets try it out and see what happens". But most of the time that doesn't happen. The suggestions like that generally have to do with "what would happen if we put that mic way up in the corner of the room?"

I've had people bring their own mics for specific things and that's fine too. In fact, I've bought mics based on such situations.

Ultimately it's about engaging the client and not isolating the client. I want them comfortable enough to feel like this is their session and I like to be stimulated by taking a little risk now and again. When a session goes that way, by the end, everyone is more satisfied.

It's something to be expected with this job.

I agree with what Toaster3000 said, "An engineer who gets pissed off about a musician requesting a different mic is probably a little too insecure to be running a session".

-- Adam Lazlo

[audiogeek1]

I agree with what Toaster3000 said, "An engineer who gets pissed off about a musician requesting a different mic is probably a little too insecure to be running a session".

-- Adam Lazlo

It depends on the way a musician is asking for the different mic. I am the one who was irritated by a hired session musician asking for an inferior mic that might have sounded ok but was not right for the situation. I do not feel I am insecure. I have almost 20 years of doing this. The only time I get irritated is when someone comes in thinking they are the king when they are playing a minor part. To me this is counterproductive.

Now if a paying client comes in with an attitude I deal with that just fine and will try anything they want. They are the ones paying for the time.

But it all really comes down to how you approach it. If you use tact then I should think that no one will have a problem. If you think you and your instrument are the king and only play a supporting role then maybe keep quiet and play what is asked and take home your check.

Mike

[AnalogElectric]

It depends on the way a musician is asking for the different mic. I am the one who was irritated by a hired session musician asking for an inferior mic that might have sounded ok but was not right for the situation. I do not feel I am insecure. I have almost 20 years of doing this. The only time I get irritated is when someone comes in thinking they are the king when they are playing a minor part. To me this is counterproductive.

Now if a paying client comes in with an attitude I deal with that just fine and will try anything they want. They are the ones paying for the time.

But it all really comes down to how you approach it. If you use tact then I should think that no one will have a problem. If you think you and your instrument are the king and only play a supporting role then maybe keep quiet and play what is asked and take home your check.

Mike

So you don't indulge said person? Why not? Sure, the client believes in you but they also believe in the session player. I find myself getting along more closely with a session player than I do with a client.

I'm willing to take a chance (a/b) between a "so-called" inferior mic (what mic would you call inferior?) and what I'd choose... like I said, I'll use multiple mics on a source during recording and go from there. I'll take on a "king-of-all-king" person but not in a way where I feel like their input isn't valid. I'll give him or her the benefit of doubt (give them what they want with a mic you want and have an a/b during mix). What's the harm in that? The insecurity comes in where if YOU'RE WRONG, your ego is bruised. Okay fine, I have only 12+ professional full-time recording years under my belt but I've been humbled and surprised by the different ideas others suggest (session players, producers, and/or clients), especially if it works out for the better (it's a higher percentage of those that work rather than those that don't).

Am I off on how I read your reply and how I replied? I'd like to figure out the fine points of this cuz it can be a slippery-slope. I hope it doesn't come off like I'm attacking you, personally. I'd like a constructive round-table if possible.

-- Adam Lazlo

[knobtwirler]

Isn't it funny how there are so many touchy egotistical situations based on a myriad of layers of macho in studios everywhere, where people seemingly overstep their boundaries by doing things like suggesting mics? Obviously we've all had experiences with negative situations, bringing up hurtful memories of such encounters and strong feelings that go with them. My POV after many years is simply, as an engineer, do what is asked. If a client doesn't oppose in any way, I won't care if a guitarist wants to record with a telephone receiver. I'm not the producer. But if I was...

[???????]

Isn't it funny how there are so many touchy egotistical situations based on a myriad of layers of macho in studios everywhere, where people seemingly overstep their boundaries by doing things like suggesting mics? Obviously we've all had experiences with negative situations, bringing up hurtful memories of such encounters and strong feelings that go with them. My POV after many years is simply, as an engineer, do what is asked. If a client doesn't oppose in any way, I won't care if a guitarist wants to record with a telephone receiver. I'm not the producer. But if I was...

There is a difference between macho and taking pride in your work. Or is there?

[markitzero]

I was micing up a southern jazz band comprised of all 60-80 year old white guys once for a live show. Everybody was cool, except for the clarinet player. I went to mic him up with an SM58 (which was requested on the rider... I think a 58 sounds way better on brass and (sometimes) woodwinds than it does on voice anyway...) and i position the mic towards (but not totally inside) the bell of the clarinet. He stops me, and proceeds to give me a 10 minute lecture in front of everyone how the clarinet sounds best mic'ed from the front of the instrument and not the bell. I tried to tell him "Yes, I agree, but we're doing a live show and you'll never cut through the mix that way with a 58"... He wouldn't have it so we did what he wanted and I was really pissed off and embarrassed.

Bottom line was the band was a bunch of old deaf guys, so the stage volume including monitors was deafening to the non-hard of hearing. The clarinet didn't cut through at ALL, and after the show he came up and said "Hmm, next time I think I will mic it your way on stage". Fucker.

Worst mic'ing experience ever was trying to put 57s (all we had for that particular show, nothing else was on the rider except for 58s) on 5 full sized harps played by white haired old ladies. It was just one of those shows where you see a bunch of geriatrics loading in a half dozen harps and you think "oh my god, kill me now"... The women knew nothing about mics and were adamant that we were micing them up wrong and insisted on a single Neumann in front of the whole group ("Thats how we did it in the studio last time!"). Its hard enough to explain why that wouldn't work in that particular live situation, let alone trying to explain to the uneducated why all you have is 57s and that you have to make do with them

Anyway, my opinion about studio micing is compromise. If there's no producer, do what the player wants... if it sounds bad, its his fault. Most guitarists really don't know what good tone is anyway.

[knobtwirler]

I love you markitzero!