Recording Levels

[therethere]

ok, so i'm a bit of a newbie at this game and i was wondering why my mixes were sounding so thin. anyways, i just want to clarify a few things. after all the mixing, how much overall headroom should i leave? and after recording at nominally -18 dbfs, what average levels would the individual tracks have after adding eq and effects? sorry if some of these questions sound kind of stupid but i figure it's good to know this stuff early on rather than keep pulling my hair over why my mixes don't sound full...

[Snarky]

Okay, Im up to page 3, Im leanring a lot, and I am even feeling validated and assurred. One time I was at a studio and dude was telling me to turn up the outputs of comps and pres and what have you SUPER HOT TO PROTOOLS, like going into red square town, and dude was like "ya gotta use all the bits" and I was like "no way, I can hear the sizzle frizzle of digital poo" and he almost had me convinced. NO RED SQUARE TOWN. That is why I like to compress signals with large transients to PTools, it just sucks ass on handling large transient instruments to me, like kick, snare, and bass (not rock distorto bass). I only own 3 outboard comps, but that's fine with me. Maybe there is a converter out there for me that can handle a transient the way I would like. I do live sound a lot so my good friends SPEAKERS AND AIR AND HUMANS handle transients the way I like. Maybe I could have sessions with large groups of people chattering away. That would be great for my noisefloor and dynamic range.


On a side note, to any newer duders, you know how it takes a little while to hear compression real well. I'm not afraid to admit it took me a good few years. Anyhow, I think it is the same with "digital distortion fizzle sizzle". Alright, maybe not quite as long as compression, but it is out there everyday, keep your ears open for it. It is lurking in your mixes. It is evil and everywhere. Hold your breath and listen. FIZZLE SIZZLE EVERYWHERE WE MUST STOP IT. DONT TURN IT UP.

A lot of the times I'll be driving and see a sign up ahead "ONLY 3 DB to RED SQUARE TOWN" and I'll turn right back around, and turn up the master IN THE CONTROL ROOM. NOT THE MASTER ON PRO TOOLS. This took me a long time to learn. Try it you'll love it and your mastering dude will love you.

[helmuth]

A fine, free, helper in the matter:

http://www.sonalksis.com/index.php?section_id=99

[farview]

ok, so i'm a bit of a newbie at this game and i was wondering why my mixes were sounding so thin. anyways, i just want to clarify a few things. after all the mixing, how much overall headroom should i leave?

5 or 6 db is fine. The truth is, if you keep your levels in check when you are recording, you won't have to worry much about them when you mix. Everything kind of works out in the end.

and after recording at nominally -18 dbfs, what average levels would the individual tracks have after adding eq and effects?

It really doesn't matter. Once you are inside the computer, the tracks are (within reason) immune to the types of problems you get during the tracking stage. The level of each track should be determined by where it needs to sit in the mix.

[Sean Shannon]

Yes, I was asking opinions on the individual track print levels, and then trying to mix them.

Of course you can run signals hot through preamps, overdrive amps, hit converters hard, etc., that's not the question, that's basic recording signal gain staging 101.

When it gets to the computer, however, there is no longer any need to scrape the ceiling on every track with print levels, the dynamic range of 24bit recording is humongous. To me, it's like printing to tape with all the meters pegging. Sort of. All new, avoidable problems arise when you do that.

Thanks for the great discussion.

[sicjoy]

I'm tinkering with a website that allows musicians to collaborate on audio projects. It has an online mixer that can be used to mix any uploaded tracks.

I'm debating whether or not to normalize (set digital gain to max before clipping) all tracks upon upload.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

--sicjoy

[Sean Shannon]

I'm debating whether or not to normalize (set digital gain to max before clipping) all tracks upon upload.

Why would you do that? Unless the recording level was so low that it hindered the collaboration, I don't see a point to that. Maybe have it be an option, but not an across the board normalize. There is no need, and then when you get your tracks back, all at digital max, you have to literally reduce the fader on all the tracks to do any processing or summing, or you will go over all over the place. I think it's a bad idea.

[sicjoy]

Ah yes good point.

My initial concern was that different artists posting tracks to an audio project would use varying gain settings. Normalizing would set a common baseline before any mixing was done.

--sicjoy

[farview]

Ah yes good point.

My initial concern was that different artists posting tracks to an audio project would use varying gain settings. Normalizing would set a common baseline before any mixing was done.

--sicjoy

The only problem with that theory is the fact that peak level doesn't mean anything. The actual 'volume' of a track has more to do with the rms levels. The rms levels, if you normalize everything, will vary wildly depending on the source.

It's also pretty meaningless. You have to mix it, so you will be adjusting the faders on every track anyway. Normalizing all the tracks will just mean that you will have to turn all the faders down lower to keep from clipping the mix buss.

I get what you are trying to do (I also have a symmetry fetish) but it is just a complete waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Ah yes good point.

My initial concern was that different artists posting tracks to an audio project would use varying gain settings. Normalizing would set a common baseline before any mixing was done.

--sicjoy

Just because they want to screw up their tracks by doing it wrong doesn't mean that everyone has to...

[calaverasgrandes]

I think some of the errors in using mixers/pres with digital converters branches off of the use of certain live sound mixers that also can be used for home studio recording. These mixers sounds thin and weak when set conservatively but open up when fed larger signals. I also had been raised on the advice of "using all the bits". Which never made sense to me even in the adat days. i thought the great thing of digital was its noise floor! Lets give the tracks room to breathe! But no, everything we recorded to ADAT had to go thru a 160, 166, 3630 or a microlimiter. Squished so it doesnt leaver any room between the first and second led! Of course all of these recordings mixed terribly. Especially the cymbals which all sound like shopping carts full of marbles.
These days I have learned to record into Sonar at -10 peaking for most of my stuff. I was working at a lower level, but honestly the MOTU 828 isnt that great, and my good sounding outboard pres are a little on the noisy side.

Heres a question:

when mixing with a MP3 as the end goal, how do you get from a cumulative mix of -10 or -6 to a -0.5 dbfs? I have experimented a little and find that (at least with LAME) it wants a pretty large signal fed to it. I have been mixing to a reasonable level, usually -5dbfs. Then throwing a good compressor/limiter or multiband on the master buss and goosing it up close to full scale.
I tried exporting the file at full rate/depth -5dbfs and then processing it after the fact with various software to get to a big signal. But didnt notice any better signal integrity. In fact I find it translates better if I go straight from the mix> to comp/Lim> to sample rate bit reduction in one step. (its called export in Sonar).
What are you guys doin?[/u]

[sicjoy]

I get what you are trying to do (I also have a symmetry fetish) but it is just a complete waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

OK - you've convinced me. I'll keep my grubby paws off of the artist's tracks.

Thanks for the help.

--sicjoy

[JGriffin]

*wonders how to keep all the marbles from falling through the grid at the bottom of the shopping cart*

[calaverasgrandes]

*wonders how to keep all the marbles from falling through the grid at the bottom of the shopping cart*

der! Line the bottom of the cart with audiophile grade aluminum foil!

[farview]

*wonders how to keep all the marbles from falling through the grid at the bottom of the shopping cart*

Put the marbles on the floor. There is nowhere for them to fall then.