180 Gram vinyl - what's the deal?

LeedyGuy · Post by **LeedyGuy** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:24 am

So what's the deal with 180 gram vinyl? It always seems to be more expensive, but I bought my first one and it sorta sounds crappy. Do I need to make any adjustments to my Technics 1200 to play this record to its fullest? By the way, it's Stevie Wonder "Music of My Mind."

-Ken

??????? · Post by **???????** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:47 am

were you familiar with that record before you bought the 180 gram version? It's a somewhat different sounding record to begin with, especially the drum sounds.

LeedyGuy · Post by **LeedyGuy** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:36 am

brad347 wrote:were you familiar with that record before you bought the 180 gram version? It's a somewhat different sounding record to begin with, especially the drum sounds.

That's a really good question. I thought I was, as it is part of the amazing Stevie era and I listened to those 70's albums on CD a million times, but the truth is that it has been a while since I really took a listen to the CD version. I do not have a regular non-180 version. The first thing that struck me when I put the record on was that the first song has that Wurly/elec piano sound, but its quite distorted, which I don't remember, so that's why I thought maybe I had to adjust something on my record player.

carlsaff · Post by **carlsaff** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:56 am

Is there any indication who did the mastering or cutting for this version? More curious than anything... I would suspect the cutting is to blame more than the format of the vinyl.

That said, there's no reason why lower-weight vinyl can't sound as good or better than 180 gram vinyl. I'd stop shy of calling 180G a gimmick, but far more important than weight is the quality of the cut, the quality of the actual vinyl material and the quality of the pressing process.

I've had my premasters cut beautifully by "known good" lathe operators and at least one that was badly distorted because the guy didn't know what he was doing. (Fortunately, the band included a CDR of my premaster with the vinyl, and that sounds fine.)

Bear's Gone Fission · Post by **Bear's Gone Fission** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:07 am

Is the platter any thicker than a garden-variety LP? An offhanded ignorant guess is that the stylus might be digging too deep on playback. But audiophiles and vinylphiles are probably the best people to know on fine-tuning playback. Just stop at the advice they give you for adjusting what you have and don't mess with the oxygen-free wire and C37 lacquer.

Bear

AntLockyer · Post by **AntLockyer** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:23 am

180 gram allows for a deeper groove and thus more dynamic space. the Stylus rake angle would have changed a little due to the thicker vinyl however it makes very little (if any) difference and suspect you have no way of changing it anyway.

Re-check your stylus is aligned correctly and has the correct tracking force and anti skating. If you want anymore help feel free to ask.

carlsaff · Post by **carlsaff** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:14 pm

AntLockyer wrote:180 gram allows for a deeper groove

This is true, but it's important to note that though they are allowed for, the grooves aren't always deeper than lower-weight vinyl releases.

wrenhunter · Post by **wrenhunter** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:19 pm

I play "normal" weight, 180g, and some that appear to be in between -- all sound pretty good on my cheapo Denon, and I don't make any adjustments. Other than my pants, if the record is really good.

AntLockyer · Post by **AntLockyer** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:40 pm

carlsaff wrote:
AntLockyer wrote:180 gram allows for a deeper groove
This is true, but it's important to note that though they are allowed for, the grooves aren't always deeper than lower-weight vinyl releases.

Very true. I buy a lot of records that have been remastered for the available space. http://www.purepleasurerecords.com/ are my current favourites.

Cellotron · Post by **Cellotron** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:09 pm

AntLockyer wrote:180 gram allows for a deeper groove and thus more dynamic space.

As someone who was a vinyl production manager for a pressing plant for a good number of years, plus got to learn and consult directly with a few of the folks who were/are among the most knowledgeable people in the world regarding vinyl record production - plus got to spend a couple years mastering scores of vinyl masters myself - I can absolutely attest that the above is COMPLETELY FALSE and not correct information!!!!

The depth of the groove is determined by the depth of the cut on the lacquer or DMM master made by the cutting lathe - the thickness of the vinyl once it has passed a basic minimum mark (usually around 100 grams) has NO EFFECT on the depth of the groove whatsoever!! As long as it has been plated and pressed properly (granted, sometimes a big if these days) - a 180gram record's grooves have the exact SAME depth as a 120gram record plated from the same mother!!

The care taken for the quality in the MASTERING, PLATING and PRESSING of a record has much more significance in a records sound quality - by many orders of magnitude - than the thickness of the record ever does.

The reason that a 180 gram record often sounds better than lighter weight pressings is that the plants often take more care in terms of quality control of the elements that really matter because they know the client that orders heavier vinyl is paying a premium for a better sounding product and is going to be pickier regarding this - NOT because of the additional weight!

What a thicker record does for you is allow for it to be slightly more stable in terms of flatness, and allows you to have a tiny bit greater variances in temperature of molds and/or process timings and still end up with a good record - i.e. it's easier to make records that are flat and will stay flat once they are at a slightly heavier weight, and also do not suffer as much from problems such as non-fill - but this "optimal" weight is easily achievable at 140 grams - and any pressing plant that actually is monitoring their operations can also pretty easily achieve this for 120-130gram records as well.

Anyway - the "180 grams gives you deeper grooves" is one of the most often repeated audio myths I see - but it is propagated by either folks who don't have direct experience with vinyl pressing - or by plants themselves that want to sell more units at a premium price! Personally I strongly think 140 gram records will get you any benefits that 180 gram will.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

micyourbrain · Post by **micyourbrain** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:10 pm

I like 180 gram. It usually sounds fantastic and feels good in your hand. The Wilco albums sound especially good in this format. 140 gram also sounds good. And heavy vinyl won't warp as easily I believe. It plays smoother too. Mastering is definitely a bigger deal of course. In my opinion, CDs definitely sound pretty okay to good all of the time, while vinyl can sound horrible or incredible.

Have you guys heard of 220? It's a must have for anyone who wants to listen to the most pristine unmolested recordings ever... NOT!

themagicmanmdt · Post by **themagicmanmdt** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:13 am

i slightly hypothesize that the extra thickness of the 180g pressings gives the vinyl itself a different resonance characteristic, and especially on the bass notes, although the audio is the same and the grooves are identical, the effect of having the audio generated by friction with the needle may cause that 'sound' (you know, when you play a turntable, you can listen to the needle if you're really quiet and close) - the notes may travel better (or worse?) or be more 'stable' when there's more vinyl sitting underneath the part being played.

it's late and i'm kinda trashed. happy halloween.

percussion boy · Post by **percussion boy** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:25 pm

Re the original poster's issues with the Stevie album, I also wonder whether there was an analog-digital-analog conversion in the manufacturing process, versus an all-analog chain involving only tape and disc.

To my ear, vinyl made from "digitally remastered" masters can sound different than old school analog-to-analog; the digital hybrid sometimes seems thinner, less "like a record" in the low frequencies.

Maybe Mr. Berson can chime in here . . . would this matter?

pineyb · Post by **pineyb** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:13 pm

Yeah, but what about 181 gram vinyl?

Roboburger · Post by **Roboburger** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:57 pm

Well it's -one- louder, innit?

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180 Gram vinyl - what's the deal?

180 Gram vinyl - what's the deal?

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