wow so here's what i learned tonight!

[cgarges]

You learn so much from a grand master in 3 secs of being around him then you could trying to learn by your self or even on a message board trying for 30 years.

True.

have you ever been around someone who is so experienced in something that they just bleed information, and the information is so informative that you are amazed?

Yes. Several times. I've been in bands with some people like that, gone to school with some people like that, and worked both for and with some people like that. It happened to me a bunch this year.

for example we talked about problematic freuqencies
to watch out for
here they are:
125
315*
630
1.25khz
2.5khz*
5khz
* means really bad.

Right off the bat, I'm thinking bullshit. There are times when adding 315Hz to a bass or a kick drum or a guitar is THE shit and what the mix needs. Ever recorded a mumbly singer in a room with unbalanced bass trapping? Sometimes you need to be sure of what's going on at 2.5k before you go cutting all of it. 5k? Yeah, it was really stupid of API to make boosting that frequency available on the 550A equalizer.

i've never gotten a single simple list of anything like that anywhere not even here.
i haven't even researched them yet but i'm sure these are problematic frequencies.

They can be problematic, especially if you don't have any ears. So can 31Hz, 126Hz, 580Hz (not to be confused with 581Hz), 1k, and to someone like Geoff Emerick, 93,000Hz. As an absolute, that list is ludicrous.

he said he keeps everything at unit gain and never adds...he always subtracts if he is eq'ing. i mean i've never even thought about problematic frequencies.

Never is a strong word. I usually prefer to cut before boosting, but I'd hardly say that I never add. I also believe at being conscious of unity gain, but I hardly ALWAYS keep everything at unity. Some pieces of gear sound better than others for particular situations and I'd rather be aware of how that affects the chain than simply keeping everything at unity. And God help you if you ever get hold of a Vocal Stresser and try to keep everything at unity.

ii said that everyone is becoming a jack of all trades and not a master and that finding a master is really hard to find these days who doesn't charge an arm and a leg. he said that's the way they want it to be. is this a conspiracy theory?

Yes, everyone in the world is in on it but you. It's a conspiracy against you, specifically. We're all hauling all our gear around to each others' houses to have listening parties every weekend and not inviting you so that we can all keep our precious secrets to ourselves.

i don't know but it does say something. i mean i've been on this board for a long time...but i can't say that i've really gotten really good recipies to try out. really that's what i'm looking for.

For as long as you've been on this board, if you haven't learned anything, than I think you need to re-evaluate your paying-attention skills. There is an amazing, intensely open, extremely busy exchange of ideas going on here. There has been for years. And the knowledge pool was CRAZY deep a few years ago. Browse some of the archives form the old board and you'll see some amazing people with CRAZY knowledge that used to hang out here. It's all there for you to read.

i'm looking for recipies. for example i made a post recently about your plugin FX chain. i got 2 replies, and the 2nd one was a copy cat. i'm just saying where are all the grand masters at. where are all the great recipies?

What sort of recipes? Where to put your drums in a room? How to EQ a bass amp? What sort of reverb decay times to use?

Here:
The corner farthest away from reflective surfaces.
Don't.
1.7 seconds.

You can also do a search for snare drum mics and look for posts that I made. Or look up B3 and find all posts by b3groover or look up mastering and find posts by Brad Blackwood, Massive Mastering, Alan Douches, or MoreSpaceEcho. You can look up contracts and find posts by Jeff Robinson. You can look up compression and find about a billion ways to use compression courtesy of Joel Hamilton. All of this stuff is useful if you know how to use it.

well i think the grand masters are too busy touring and recording to be helping people like me.

Could be. It could be that they're also out experimenting on sessions and continually figuring out what works in whatever situation they're dealing with. Plenty of people on here take time out of their day to share information. If you can't get something out of what all these kind people have shared so far, I think you're probably in the minority.

the recipies exist but no one really wants to take the time to list them and in their mind for good reason. the last page on the last issue of tapeop larry was talking about this same thing. so here's how i feel. i'm not asking you do my work for me. but a recipie here and there would be mighty cool of you. i'm not looking for an argument claiming that it's all art and no science or that it's all an opinion and there are no rules. i really will never accept that there are no rules. there are rules, you can choose to ignore them or acknowledge them. that is exactly why all the shows i see locally..... suck.

Then you're either not going to the right shows or you're not paying attention to the right stuff. I know of a bunch of killer shows that have happened in your town in the last few years. I don't think that whether or not a show sucks can be solely defined by "recipes."

well first reading a book about recording to me is like reading a book about how to play the guitar or have sex or driving a car. i play the guitar and i would consider my self above average and i can't say that i have ever read a book. i took 3 lessons my whole life and then i just started playing by ear, learning all the scales, and then just doing it. i have learned a lot by being around people and watching them play. finding someone here where i live to record under just isn't a pheasible situation. and i really need to make money to eat.

So do these people with the information. If you're not digging where you are, go somewhere else to learn. That's what I did and then I came back and learned more. It worked for Tony Visconti, too.

why hasn't someone put out a cheat sheet for everyone to experiment with.

A cheat sheet of what? Do you have idea idea how many books on recording there are out there? What's the difference between that and a cheat sheet? We've already established that you think books are jive for whatever reason. What's gonna be so great about a cheat sheet? Is it that a cheat sheet is better for a short attention span or what?

you could have the same mics, the same mic pres, but if you didn't have very hard to find specific information like the room size or where delay times, it would be really hard for you to get the same sound. for example the article on remastering the depeche mode stuff in surround sound and recreating that stuff. talk about painstaking amazingly hard..... why? because so much information was gone! as in non-existent. not documented at all or archived. they had to recreate to best of their ability and even then did they get it right? maybe. maybe not. i just wish there were more specifics.

Some of that stuff IS gone. Some of that stuff that you would think would be simple to find out just isn't. What kind of consoles were at A&M from 1973-1977? I've been trying to find that out for a long time. I know they had a Quad Eight in one room. I can't seem to find any info about it. Or about the Phillips console used at Surrey Sound early-on. Or what replaced it. Am I gripey about it? No, I just keep doing what I'm doing and trying to do the best that I can right now and trying to get better. When I find that shit out, is it gonna drastically change my work method? Doubtful.

You want to figure some of it out? Try recreating some songs that you like. Seriously. Take some album that you really dig and try to re-make it and do everything you can to make it sound exactly like the original. Not having a plate reverb isn't anywhere near as detrimental as getting the reverb time wrong. Not having the same kick drum mic isn't anywhere near as detrimental as having the actual bass drum sound completely wrong in the room.

Spend some time doing this. It's exactly the same for your ears and engineering chops as learning to play a song on the guitar.

I guarantee you that Roy Thomas Baker spent more time experimenting than looking at a cheat sheet.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[cgarges]

By the way, one of the best live sound guys I've ever worked with is in Raleigh and he ALWAYS starts with a flat console. He never EQs anything without hearing it first.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[rwc]

There are chief engineers of legendary studios that might agree with the point of his post, which I interpreted to be, that there is no mentoring system anymore.

This I agree with and it's sad. Watching someone else work is is one of the best ways to learn. But you can't watch them to find a secret move. It's how they deal with each situation on it's own.
Each instrument, each mix, every overdub is 'fluid'.

I'm pretty convinced they would agree because I have been lucky enough to be in situations to hear the conversations between some of these people. The modern mentoring system is a joke at a lot of places. Staying in business is hard enough without worrying about teaching people.

[red cross]

so i was was at this bar and then there was this guy who was the engineer for this local semi famous band. they were a bunch of old guys in their 40's who knew how to rock. here's what i learned: You learn so much from a grand master in 3 secs of being around him then you could trying to learn by your self or even on a message board trying for 30 years.
have you ever been around someone who is so experienced in something that they just bleed information, and the information is so informative that you are amazed?
that's what happened to me.
i ended up talking to this guy who has been recording since he was 14, and he's like in his mid 40's. it was amazing. i love sucking up hard to get information. for example we talked about problematic freuqencies
to watch out for
here they are:
125
315*
630
1.25khz
2.5khz*
5khz
* means really bad.
i've never gotten a single simple list of anything like that anywhere not even here.
i haven't even researched them yet but i'm sure these are problematic frequencies. he said he keeps everything at unit gain and never adds...he always subtracts if he is eq'ing. i mean i've never even thought about problematic frequencies.
i told him that a lot of people don't like sharing their secrets and he said that it's a stupid mentality to go by because it wouldn't matter if i had this information because i don't have his ears. but still you have to start with some guidelines or rules of thumbs to go by. i said that everyone is becoming a jack of all trades and not a master and that finding a master is really hard to find these days who doesn't charge an arm and a leg. he said that's the way they want it to be. is this a conspiracy theory? i don't know but it does say something. i mean i've been on this board for a long time...but i can't say that i've really gotten really good recipies to try out. really that's what i'm looking for. i'm looking for recipies. for example i made a post recently about your plugin FX chain. i got 2 replies, and the 2nd one was a copy cat. i'm just saying where are all the grand masters at. where are all the great recipies? well i think the grand masters are too busy touring and recording to be helping people like me. the recipies exist but no one really wants to take the time to list them and in their mind for good reason. the last page on the last issue of tapeop larry was talking about this same thing. so here's how i feel. i'm not asking you do my work for me. but a recipie here and there would be mighty cool of you. i'm not looking for an argument claiming that it's all art and no science or that it's all an opinion and there are no rules. i really will never accept that there are no rules. there are rules, you can choose to ignore them or acknowledge them. that is exactly why all the shows i see locally..... suck. for the most part because the sound guy has no clue about good rules or at least good rule of thumbs to go by. he's using all the wrong delays, and reverbs wrong and it really makes the band sound amatuer-ish. and even if you are going to break the rules don't you have to know the rules before you break them?
so someone would then say if you want rules why don't you buy a book or go apprentice under someone.
well first reading a book about recording to me is like reading a book about how to play the guitar or have sex or driving a car. i play the guitar and i would consider my self above average and i can't say that i have ever read a book. i took 3 lessons my whole life and then i just started playing by ear, learning all the scales, and then just doing it. i have learned a lot by being around people and watching them play. finding someone here where i live to record under just isn't a pheasible situation. and i really need to make money to eat.
why hasn't someone put out a cheat sheet for everyone to experiment with. it could be called the tapeop recipie cheat sheet. i guess a book could be informative but in my experience never have i read something that just made me think whoa thats good shit. most of the time it's theory, the vintage mic pres they used,pictures, and what was going on in their life the time they were famous. never have i ever read something like we had the reverb decay was 1.86s, the defussion was 72% the room size was this...the specifics that actually make that sound. you could have the same mics, the same mic pres, but if you didn't have very hard to find specific information like the room size or where delay times, it would be really hard for you to get the same sound. for example the article on remastering the depeche mode stuff in surround sound and recreating that stuff. talk about painstaking amazingly hard..... why? because so much information was gone! as in non-existent. not documented at all or archived. they had to recreate to best of their ability and even then did they get it right? maybe. maybe not. i just wish there were more specifics. i'm certainly not looking for anyone to record for me. i'm just looking for out of the ordinary super compacted with information stuff that i can really use. it's so rare to find that. that's why i get excited when i find someone who has all this super compacted with information stuff with such a surplus it's just oozes out of their brain. this guy wasn't even looking for me. i was looking for him. i know a guy who would mix live all the big bands that came into raleigh, so he would do live mixing for bands like areosmith,eagles,pearl jam, and just hearing what he has to say is amazing. it's pretty awesome.
he's no one famous. but he's been doing it for a long time. there are lots of guys in the shadows who are seen as no ones and it's amazing what these rare people know. and you will never meet them or talk to them because alot of them aren't on a message board. they're too busy doing what we like to talk about. they know what they know because they love what they do but also because they depend on their career to eat.

After struggling to read all that I still don't quite understand what it is you're looking for? What cheat sheet? If you have a specific problem or question post it here and people will be more than willing to help. If you need general guides to mic placement / eq there's a shitload of books out there with exactly that.

[solo-bration]

Live mixing and recording/mixing are pretty different motherfuckers. There's no general cheat sheet for either and definitely not one shared for BOTH. If you want help/tips for learning frequencies, I'm sure you could find a chart online that lays out the 20hz-20k freq range and shows you where most instruments fall into it all... How to cut string noise on the bass, add more click/attack to your kick, less nasal on a vocal.

Personally, I never boost house or monitor EQ's live. Only subtractive EQ there. I will boost a little on some of the individual channel strips. Usually drums and usually never vocals. I try to carve out the mud until I get what I want (live). If I need more 5k on a vocal, I'll put it back in the house EQ and re-adjust my channel EQ's in relation to the change I just made on the house.

I learn from some touring engineers and I think some even learn from me. What everyone here is saying is said in almost every other thread on this website: No two rooms, instruments, or ears sound/listen the same way. So there's no exact formula (cheat sheet) to it all. Just take all advice with a grain of salt, test it out, and see if/how it works for you.

[Colin F.]

2.6khz is known as "The Devil's Frequency." In most of the problem lists I've have unearthed, its at the top. ALWAYS cut it. A giant came to me in a dream and told me that... or was he just an old bell hop?

[lyman]

for example i made a post recently about your plugin FX chain. i got 2 replies, and the 2nd one was a copy cat. i'm just saying where are all the grand masters at. where are all the great recipies? well i think the grand masters are too busy touring and recording to be helping people like me. the recipies exist but no one really wants to take the time to list them and in their mind for good reason.

well, sure. did you really think it would be as easy as lobbing out questions into the soupy ether of the online world, and have the echo come back laced with a career's worth or experience and insight? no, man. you gotta climb that mountain to get to the guru. and Mt. HTTP is waaayy too easy of a climb. it takes some time, effort, and resilience to the doors shut in your face before you find a true mentor. take what you can get, but always look for the next learning opportunity.

[dynomike]

I'm always extremely skeptical when someone has a "secret recipe"... all it tells you is that they stopped listening once they found out "the recipe". I think this guy was probably selling you situation specific knowledge - don't take it as a general rule. This is 'preset' mentality. If you don't know why this is a fallacy after all this time on the board... I don't know if I can help you. Furthermore...

There's no cheat sheet for learning skills. There are no secrets! Knowledge is available! Discipline yourself to read a book about the basics of sound and recording. Train yourself to actually *hear* the different frequencies... play around with a parametric eq on a mix for a while, boosting one frequency at a time, listening for a few minutes, then cutting it. Once you feel like you are getting a grasp on the recording thing, read as many interviews with engineers that you respect as you can. The tape op book is a really cool place to start, as is "Behind the Glass". These won't help you that much though, if you don't already grasp the fundamentals of what they are talking about.

Anyway a bunch of people have replied already, but from your attitude in the original post it seems like we probably can't help you... you have to take the initiative to seek out real knowledge yourself. Good luck!

[kayagum]

The best teacher is experience. The more gigs, the better. Coloring by numbers doesn't always work, and everyone has a different numbering system.

Mentoring: (I'm not including this board in what I'm about to say)- I have found most people to be less than forthcoming with what they know in conversation. The only time I get worthwhile advice and tips is when I'm working with the person on the same project, and we both have vested interest in the success of the project. Which means, you need to gig with good people. Go back to previous paragraph. Repeat.

[kung_fu_elvis]

*long time lurker, first time poster*

I've been coming to this site for over 6 months... for the first 2 months, I spent reading almost every topic I could, as far as the archives go back... now I check daily, to keep on the newest topics/posts, etc.

There are literally thousands of tips, or 'recepies' if you desire in these very pages... Most of them written from people with experience that I can only hope to acheive.

That being said, you have to look for them... Normally you will get varied opinions, which only enriches the ideas presented, and enforces the idea that there is no 'secret', only options.

Baldfather, you yourself have admitted to not enjoying reading much, but unfortunately, this is a message board, and there's not really much of an option but to read... and try out some of the things you find here.

Your own experience/experiments will teach you a lot...

Many times it seems that things get covered, and covered and covered, and by the time the same question is asked the 7th or 8th time, people aren't as willing to divulge...

All in all I'd say, you've got to be willing to read through a fair amount to get something out of this place... it's worth it.

[TheForgotten]

for example i made a post recently about your plugin FX chain. i got 2 replies, and the 2nd one was a copy cat.

Not trying to be sassy but, re-read my post.
I agreed with RodC and then gave you a completely different idea to try.

I think a lot of this is about learning style. You'll definitely see the differences between a practical learner and a book learner(forgot the appropriate term) if you remove them from their naturally comfortable situation.

I can do just about as well reading a book as I can watching someone but if the House Engineer starts telling you stuff, it's likely in the book. He just did some extra editing for you and made it into the reader's digest version.

Cheers!

[RodC]

*long time lurker, first time poster*

I've been coming to this site for over 6 months... for the first 2 months, I spent reading almost every topic I could, as far as the archives go back... now I check daily, to keep on the newest topics/posts, etc.

There are literally thousands of tips, or 'recepies' if you desire in these very pages... Most of them written from people with experience that I can only hope to acheive.

That being said, you have to look for them... Normally you will get varied opinions, which only enriches the ideas presented, and enforces the idea that there is no 'secret', only options.

Baldfather, you yourself have admitted to not enjoying reading much, but unfortunately, this is a message board, and there's not really much of an option but to read... and try out some of the things you find here.

Your own experience/experiments will teach you a lot...

Many times it seems that things get covered, and covered and covered, and by the time the same question is asked the 7th or 8th time, people aren't as willing to divulge...

All in all I'd say, you've got to be willing to read through a fair amount to get something out of this place... it's worth it.

Welcome to the board, this is about the 3rd or 4th new member that jumped in this week with a decent post. I got to go back and find the others...

[floid]

the other day i went to my parents' place for a meal, and i requested mom's gravy. cos no one can make gravy like my mom. So we sit down at the table and i spoon out some gravy... looks like ass, tastes like ass.
"What's up with the gravy mom?"
"Well, i did everything i always do, but the thing is, i don't really make gravy very often anymore. Guess i'm just out of practice."

[@?,*???&?]

2.6khz is known as "The Devil's Frequency." In most of the problem lists I've have unearthed, its at the top. ALWAYS cut it. A giant came to me in a dream and told me that... or was he just an old bell hop?

You can't simply make a generalization like this.

2.6 Khz can be 'the devil's frequency' IF you have vocal material. IF your track has alot of 2.6, THEN you will not hear your vocal.

What is the message of the music? Where does the prevalent contact reside frequency-wise? How best do you expose it? Accompaniement (sp) tracks are always 'darker' than lead instruments.

But you cannot simply generalize and call 2.6 Khz 'the devil's frequency' as if we need to eliminate it at all costs.

[dynomike]

2.6khz is known as "The Devil's Frequency." In most of the problem lists I've have unearthed, its at the top. ALWAYS cut it. A giant came to me in a dream and told me that... or was he just an old bell hop?

You can't simply make a generalization like this.

2.6 Khz can be 'the devil's frequency' IF you have vocal material. IF your track has alot of 2.6, THEN you will not hear your vocal.

What is the message of the music? Where does the prevalent contact reside frequency-wise? How best do you expose it? Accompaniement (sp) tracks are always 'darker' than lead instruments.

But you cannot simply generalize and call 2.6 Khz 'the devil's frequency' as if we need to eliminate it at all costs.

i sure hope you were just missing the sarcasm.. as indicated by the last phrase in the guy's post..