YAY! Another overhead mic question!!! SDC with LDC sound?

[delphonic]

Yeah yeah, I know saying SDC with LDC sound is kinda stupid, but here's my deal: (and I'll start by saying the music is more rock-oriented and something under $600-700 for a pair would be ideal).

I play mostly Zildian A-customs, which tend to be bright. I've been to a professional studio, done some home stuff, and worked with some prosumer engineers . LDC is usually what engineers end up using on my kit (and I prefer the sound). I have had some success using SDC, but in the end I like the "smoothness" of a LDC and how they seem to soften the high edge on my cymballs.

I'm doing more home studio recording. My room isn't stellar and we do a lot of live tracking in the same room. Soooo... I like the idea of SDC for less reliance on good room, less bleed live, and the stereo image seems easier to manage (to me). But I still prefer a LDC sound.

I'm willing to deal with the bleed of a LDC if it comes down to it... but I just thought I'd see if anyone has similar experience/tastes and could make some SDC recommendations. The main thing I've noticed on some of the cheaper (especially chinese) mics is that the high end seems to be exaggerated on SDCs.... which I'm obviously trying to avoid. I've heard good results from mics out of my price range... so trying to find a nice middle ground.

[thunderboy]

I like the idea of SDC for less reliance on good room, less bleed live...

Huh? Not sure what you mean by all of that. Some of my SDCs have far more bleed than some of my LDCs...

That aside, have you considered ribbons?

jt

[delphonic]

Huh? Not sure what you mean by all of that. Some of my SDCs have far more bleed than some of my LDCs...

That aside, have you considered ribbons?

jt

Well... that's why I'm asking for input/advice/suggestions. My experience so far is that I've been able to control the bleed better with SDCs. I've also read many post saying the same thing.

If the consensus is that LDC isn't much worse than SDC for bleed and room dynamics... then I'd love to hear it (and examples of mics based on the general sound I'm looking for).

I have considered ribbons, but don't know a ton about them. Any suggestion for my price range / application?

[lobstman]

I was thinking ribbons too, but the problem is that good ones ain't cheap. I think you're more likely to find a decent pair of condensers in your price range than ribbons.

Beyer M160s can be cool drum OHs, but they're $750 each new. Maybe somebody can chime in on the Oktava ribbons, I've never used them. The recent flood of chinese ribbons can be usable on some things, but the QC is all over the map- I wouldn't try stereo miking anything with them.

i don't think you get more or less bleed depending on the diaphragm size, but it does sound different- SDCs are more accurate off-axis, while LDCs get a little wonky.

Mild compression on OHs can make things sound a little "rounder", but then you risk bringing up bleed.

[chris harris]

I've been using Cascade Fathead II ribbon mics for overheads lately. I really like it. I think that they'll do pretty much just what you want. They take eq nicely, too. So, you can get a nice, big, smooth OH sound and then add whatever "air" or "sizzle" you need.

You can get a pair of them for around $300, if I recall correctly.

[hyde maintenance]

I love what a single overhead Beyer M260 does with my cymbals in my crappy untreated, low-ceilinged room.
I also recall thinking the tape op omnis (anyone remember those?) were nice and smooth in a similar environment.

Way under budget on both of these, even for a pair of the 260's.

[NeglectedFred]

Something under $600-700 for a pair would be ideal.

I play mostly Zildian A-customs, which tend to be bright.
I like the "smoothness" of a LDC and how they seem to soften the high edge on my cymballs.
My room isn't stellar and we do a lot of live tracking in the same room.

The main thing I've noticed on some of the cheaper (especially chinese) mics is that the high end seems to be exaggerated on SDCs.... which I'm obviously trying to avoid.

At this point, spending $500-$600 on new mic's will not even give you half the result that spending $200-300 on room treatment will give you.

New mics seems cooler, but DIY some acoustic panels, you're money will go futher, and the equipment you already have will seem much more valuable.

If you still wanna go with new mics, have you considered LDD's? Maybe SM7 or RE20? I also use Zildjian A's, and have gotten great sounds with Audix OM5's as overheads. They're actually small dynamics, but they're my favorite dynamics.

A pair of SM7's as overheads might seem a little unconventional, but trying to resolve room issues with mics is unconventional too. A new pair might put you a bit over budget, maybe Ebay? You'd never regret a pair of them. They probably wont always be your first choice for overheads when the room problems are resolved, but they'll never disapoint you - and probably even surprise you.

Shure KSM32 is always the first LDC that comes to mind when I think dark - it;s not that they really are, but they certainly don't hype the top like cheap chinese condensers. A pair of those will also put you over budget, but one would still be a great choice for a mono overhead over a bright kit.

[b3groover]

I second the suggestion to focus on the acoustics of your room, rather than throwing more gear at the issue.

Putting bass traps in every corner and adding absorption to my 7' basement ceiling really took my recordings to the next level. I could never get a decent kick drum sound until the bass traps. And overheads always sounded phasey and ill-defined.

Do a search on DIY solutions for acoustic treatment. You can do a lot if you do it yourself and do it smartly.

[firesine]

Ribbons can tame the high end but will also pick up more room, so you will definitely need to treat your ceiling if you go that route.

I would recommend a pair of Shure KSM 141s which are very versatile mics with switchable polar patters, I have used them as OHs and liked the results.

New they are over your budget, but not by much, and you might be able to score a used pair for right in your price range.

[kayagum]

Call me a killjoy, but couldn't you switch cymbals?

The reason I bring it up is because I coincidentally read this article today. Although the particular topic is guitar amps, the same principle rings true (pardon the pun) with any and all sources.

Here's a suggestion: Rather than listening to what your amp sounds like in your imagination, listen to what it sounds like in reality. And if you want to know the truth, listen to how it records. Stick a mic in front of it, play, and hit record. Now play it back. That's what your amp sounds like, my friend. That's reality. And if you don't like what you hear, then it may be time to add a better amp to your Christmas list.

http://www.mojopie.com/2008/12/your-amp-sucks.html

I know this may not be as much fun as microphone shopping, but it's probably more effective.

[b3groover]

kayagum has a point. Recently we tried about five different rides and 6 sets of hi-hats on my kit while recording and listened back to each one. The cymbals that sounded nice to our ears in the room were not necessarily the ones that sounded best once recorded. That was an eye opener.

In fact, I was auditioning hi-hats because I finally got tired of my Zildjian A series! Wound up getting a pair of Bosphorus Fat Hats.

But I still say acoustic treatments might be a better option.

[mjau]

Another vote for acoustic treatment. Spend on it once, and it will continually 'deliver' on that initial investment.

[the finger genius]

It seems like you're confusing SDC / LDC with polar pattern (e.g. Cardioid, Omni, etc...) Maybe the engineer(s) you were tracking with used omni LDCs?

A Cardioid, or Unidirectional (meaning it mostly just picks up sound from the front) SDC should for the most part give you the same amount of room bleed as a Cardioid LDC. An Omni, or Omnidirectional mic (SDC or LDC) has a polar pattern which looks more like a circle; if you're trying to avoid room sound, you should also avoid omnis.

LDC's may tend to be a little smoother on the top end because the diaphragm tends to be heavier, and therefore the transient response can be limited. I tend to find though that in most cheap condensors (LDC or SDC) the high end is equally hyped. I've had some success using ribbon, which usually has a natural top end roll off (but still good sounding transient response) but these are figure 8, or bi-directional, which again may not work for you if you're trying to avoid room sound, but they may be worth a try if you can find a pair to borrow. Shinybox makes good stuff, there's also Cascade / Fathead, which most people here seem to like.

[delphonic]

I have considered acoustic treatment and am well aware of it's effects. I am already sourcing materials I need for bass traps, broadbands...etc. I am going to make the best out of the space I have... so not really looking to discuss that. In the end it's just not the "ideal" room. So, my point was looking for mics that would be little less vulnerable to room issues (if that's even possible).

And yeah... I've thought about changing out my cymbals. But after I deal with all the other things I need I don't have the money to have a bunch on hand... plus I like my cymbals and I've gotten good sounds from them before (recorded).

So what I'm hearing is that you guys don't have many more bleed problems with LCD as opposed to SDC?.... and I'm not confusing cardiod with omni directional. I know the difference and we've usually used a cardiod type pattern unless we wanted a lot of bleed.

[the finger genius]

So what I'm hearing is that you guys don't have many more bleed problems with LCD as opposed to SDC?....

You are correct, sir.