Getting that Kick to Cut

[cgarges]

great drummer - don't get me wrong. but rock?

Plays his ASS off on XTC's Nonsuch. He's a big proponent of using multiple bass drum beaters, so he came to mind, but the same could be said of thousands of great rock drummers.

A well-tuned and well played bass drum can totally fit into rock music without having a non-felt beater. In fact, I'd put a large amount of money on it that the majority of music that is considered "rock" was recorded with a felt beater on the bass drum. There's nothing at all wrong with using wood or plastic or cork or acrylic or whatever, but "kiss of death" for felt in rock is a little extreme. In fact, there's a certain kind of kick drum sound that comes from a hard plastic beater that I'm absolutely sick of hearing, even though Nashville is trying it's damndest to keep alive.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[cgarges]

Dave who?

Your friends at allmusic.com have four pages of credits on him.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Recycled_Brains]

Man, I just mixed (didn't track) a hardcore band's demo, and I had to work to get the kick to NOT cut so much.

The drummer's kick came in sounding like a triggered sample. Had to suck a bunch of 4k out to make it sound less like a metal spike being hammered through my skull. Nevermind that it had almost NOTHING below 100 Hz in the way of useable low end. That's never happened to me with metal stuff. Usually I'm adding up there and taking down there to get the kick to cut through.

I'm finding lately, that compressing pretty liberally with a medium attack and fast release gives the kick some snap. Also, gating has helped me out in denser mixes, where the kick just occupies too much real estate (shorten the decay, emphasize the attack).

[@?,*???&?]

Man, I just mixed (didn't track) a hardcore band's demo, and I had to work to get the kick to NOT cut so much.

The drummer's kick came in sounding like a triggered sample. Had to suck a bunch of 4k out to make it sound less like a metal spike being hammered through my skull. Nevermind that it had almost NOTHING below 100 Hz in the way of useable low end. That's never happened to me with metal stuff. Usually I'm adding up there and taking down there to get the kick to cut through.

I'm finding lately, that compressing pretty liberally with a medium attack and fast release gives the kick some snap. Also, gating has helped me out in denser mixes, where the kick just occupies too much real estate (shorten the decay, emphasize the attack).

Felt could have been your elixir- or better yet, a pom-pom...

[Ryan Silva]

Use compression to alter the envelope of the BD. Use subtractive EQ on some other sources to create a hole for the BD to occupy.

Do you mean timing it where the kicks attack develops slower? Im not sure I follow, but I am interested.

I have had luck with subtractive EQ, this however depends on the style. It just seams to me what I want to pull out off the bass guitar to make the kick come through, kills the bass tone.

My starting point for doing this in Rock mixes, is pulling out a little 60Hz in the Bass DI, then pulling out some 125 Hz in the kick to leave room for the Bass. Seems to work for rock, not so much for Blues, Country, or even Jazz at times (small kick drums don't give me these problems)

Thanks

[TapeOpLarry]

Since the kick drum can be such an elusive beast to capture and mix, I think of it like multiple instruments or sounds I'm trying to capture. I use a 6" speaker into a DI box (or Yamaha Subkick if one is around) to its own track, plus a dynamic mic inside the shell (if it's got a hole). Also sometimes a condenser mic further out, or maybe even a "tunnel" to keep cymbals and snare out. Combining multiple sources can be the easiest way to have control over the sound - plus multing out a signal with different treatments (compression always comes to mind first) as mentioned above. Obviously check the phase against the rest of the kit and don't flip the polarity of the inside mic - flip other mics against that.

[@?,*???&?]

Since the kick drum can be such an elusive beast to capture and mix, I think of it like multiple instruments or sounds I'm trying to capture. I use a 6" speaker into a DI box (or Yamaha Subkick if one is around) to its own track, plus a dynamic mic inside the shell (if it's got a hole). Also sometimes a condenser mic further out, or maybe even a "tunnel" to keep cymbals and snare out. Combining multiple sources can be the easiest way to have control over the sound - plus multing out a signal with different treatments (compression always comes to mind first) as mentioned above. Obviously check the phase against the rest of the kit and don't flip the polarity of the inside mic - flip other mics against that.

Yup. Larry thinks like me!

[The Scum]

Use compression to alter the envelope of the BD. Use subtractive EQ on some other sources to create a hole for the BD to occupy.

Do you mean timing it where the kicks attack develops slower? Im not sure I follow, but I am interested.

Use a compressor to make the kick pump a little bit. Depending on the song and drum, it can take any of several different shapes.

Sometimes limiting the transient with a fast attack, and letting the sustain ride up a little with a medium release does it. Other times, a longer attack to keep the click and shorter release makes it pump in such a way that it cuts through the mix. Sometimes it takes parallel compression to get everything right.

I've found the DBX 160 to be very useful on kick...over easy if I want to hear the pumping, non-OE if I don't. (Of course, Distressors and 1176's also do kick well)

[drumsound]

Use compression to alter the envelope of the BD. Use subtractive EQ on some other sources to create a hole for the BD to occupy.

Do you mean timing it where the kicks attack develops slower? Im not sure I follow, but I am interested.


Thanks

IF I'm wanting the BD to cut more I'm actually trying to alter the envelope to make the BD sound shorter. So an attack that gives me a good attack and the a pretty big amount of gain reduction on the bloom, getting it out of the way. When the sound is much shorter, and more attack focused, I can turn the fader up and not have the BD take over the mix. This can work really well if the drum didn't have a hole of if just has a lot of sustain.

For instance, I borrow a 26" BD from a friend quite often. It's empty and has a full front head. I love it to death and love to just sit and play it, but it can be quite the unruly beast once the mix rolls around. Some pretty sever compression can make it fit really nicely, but still sound like a big ass bass drum!

[Zygomorph]

I really like Larry's perspective as well. The kick-as-recording is indeed very elusive, so it can be really worthwhile to give oneself options.

I would like to suggest to the original poster that perhaps in non-rock contexts, the kick doesn't actually *need* to cut. This is a musical issue before it is an engineering one. Ideally, of course, there would be a producer telling you what the kick should sound like.

The first few examples of non-cutting kicks in semi-rock or pop contexts that come to mind:

* Belle and Sebastian (specifically, The Boy With the Arab Strap)
* later Stereolab (where the bass region in general is extremely present, but quite pillowy)

[TapeOpLarry]

Or contrary, listen to '70's style midrangey kicks, like Pink Floyd's "Meddle". The presence of the kick is a soft, midrange thump with a smidgen of lows at the bottom. One BIG mistake people make when learning to record is trying to give bass and kick some HUGE amount of low end, when most great sounding albums are really going for definition of movement/articulation in the midrange and a clean/controlled bottom end to the whole recording.

[Ryan Silva]

Thanks guys,

I am mixing an eclectic parody band today, and there style is all over the place depending on the particular item there making fun of.

It?s my first real session since a myriad of equipment upgrades, and I was hoping the improved tracking of the kick drum (which sounds great) will alleviate this issue in the future.

Most of the time I was either using a D112 or a Re20 inside, through a Mackie Onyx Pre>160a, and a 414 buls outside of the Kick through an Onyx. A/D also Onyx

Not no more!!!

Now I use my API 3124+ on both ran through Toft ATB EQ a Drawmer 1968 then on to a Lynx Aurora.

I also switched out my 414buls in front of the Kick with a Red Type A w/R7 cap.

I can already tell that I am going to have a lot more options when it comes to transient design.

For this project I put the D112 in the shell and the Red Type A 2 feet back pointed towards the top of the head. In the past I have used tunnels but I was getting such a great ?Entire Kit? sound from that placement I let it breathe. Although I had to battle HH wash a little, it has some great top end to the Kick.

We start in about an hour, gotta run.

Thanks

[@?,*???&?]

Or contrary, listen to '70's style midrangey kicks, like Pink Floyd's "Meddle". The presence of the kick is a soft, midrange thump with a smidgen of lows at the bottom. One BIG mistake people make when learning to record is trying to give bass and kick some HUGE amount of low end, when most great sounding albums are really going for definition of movement/articulation in the midrange and a clean/controlled bottom end to the whole recording.

Agreed. Both achieved with an AKG D12 and a felt beater...the spaciousness of the material allows for a more complex tone to resonate.

[losthighway]

* later Stereolab (where the bass region in general is extremely present, but quite pillowy)

That to me is a very RE20 sound. I think I commented on that kick drum sound in another thread as making a "puh" sound instead of a "poht" pretend your mouth is a kick drum and repeat those sounds without laughing at your self and you will know what I mean.

I think getting a kick drum sound that is not heavy, and stands out in a mix is a process of getting comfortable with the idea that some kick sounds should have usable mids, and not a smile curve. The RE20 (and I'm told the SM7 as well) captures usable mids that make your inner metal head nauseous when the kick is solo'd but amounts to a classic kick drum that you can hear in a mix.

And PS felt beaters are fine. My DW can sound all modern rock with my felt beater. That plastic beater thing is annoying to me unless it's supposed to be Black Metal or something.

[turtlejon1]

I really like Stillwell's Transient Monster for this.

+1 for this, it's way eay, and it sounds totally freakin awesome!
this really works and is very easy
stillwell has a great demo option...
and all of their plugs sound fantastic and and are really sensible to use and well organized UI
probably my favorite plugs as of now...
(im also a drummer and studied the tonmeister technique)