lets talk metal

[thethingwiththestuff]

Funny thing is, I really don't care what the guitar amp sounds like in the room. I always have the head in the control room and the cabinet in the iso booth. I tweak the sound listening through the monitors to what the mics are picking up.

Now, it turns out that when you go into the room, the guitar amp sounds good. But it isn't necessarily the sound you would go for if you were standing in the room tweaking.

It doesn't matter what the amp sounds like in the room because no one is in there to hear it. Even if there is, it's a couple people for a couple hours. The rest of the world will be listening through the mics. Same thing goes for (bigger) live situations, what it sounds like through the mic is more important than what it sounds like standing next to it.

POST OF THE YEAR!

[trodden]

Great thread! Alot of good points and ideas.

I record mostly heavier bands, punk, metal, hardcore, noise..... And since that's all i've really ever done, and all I've ever really played... I'm not sure how different it would be recording a non-heavy band.... Pretty much put up mics where they sound good and pray to all mighty dark lord satan that the band is rehearsed and fun to be in a room with for long periods of time....

However I did do a avant-garde jazz, prog, chamber, rock, instrumental, freak out record last year.... that turned out to be one of my best sounding recordings, and most enjoyable sessions/people.

But I also spent 6 weeks on the road as a roadie for a band supporting Watain.... that was... interesting.

One thing I do for every heavy type band.. is edit the fuck out of the tom tracks.. I manually gate each tom hit.. getting rid of all the in between crap so when i send them along a few heavy compressed parallel tracks, i'm not getting too much washy wash.

The sound replacer thing is cool. but usually just use a few one offs from the actual kit i'm recording and blend with the "live" snare and kick.

I don't really have the ear and technique or patience for alot of the "extreme" technical stuff. "extreme" in rawness, originality, psycological i love... rather than a technical shred freakout... i can't keep up with that... as someone posted above, (justin), i'm much more for the wallop of say neurosis or converge than the clean sterile amp modeled sounds of some other groups... I like it dirty and with character. However, the early Dillinger Escape Plan records and that last Cattle Decapitation record, The Harvest Floor, is a technical mind fuck that sounds totally cool... Done by Billy Anderson... whom he, along with Jay Matheson, Kurt Ballou, Ed Rose, Joel Hamilton, show up on quite a few of my favorite records.

[farview]

I tend to go for a much more polished production than what most everyone is mentioning here. Shadows Fall, Disturbed, Pantera, Metallica 'Black album', Dimmu Borgir, etc... Guys like Johny K, Bob Rock, Terry Date, Andy Sneep, etc...

[joel hamilton]

If you can do really heavy records you can do anything in audio.
Every other type of music requires less genre-constricted aesthetic bombast....
Understanding what makes a given record great is more important than whether you use amp farm or a twin or a dual rectifier or a supro 8" combo...

I like superheroic heavy rock with real attitude, much more so than the stuff that sounds like a perfectly shaved addidas symbol in a dyed black facial hair sculpture, BUT, I like making really heavy records of all types. Whether I am doing stuff with Dub Trio, Dixie Witch, Secret Chiefs, Unsane, or Battle of Mice or whatever... Its always the goal to make it feel superhuman. The same way that records gave me the chills when I was 12.... I have to get that feeling from the heavy stuff.. like "these people must be 12 feet tall!!!"
As far as the technical side of it, it depends on the band and the aesthetic... there are times where I have used no EQ, and times where I have EQ's the CHRIST out of things. Thats true of any record.
You just have to know how things are supposed to sound, and then pursue it. Again: true of any record.
I came up playing heavy music, from the NYC hardcore shows of the late 80's and early 90's... so if you can reference things like Raw Deal (killing time), Bad Brains, but also Leeway and Sheer Terror... but then talk about Exodus, or even something like Rose Tattoo, helloween, or Riot... maybe sir lord baltimore?
Can you hang with the Don Fury Hardcore records? How about the Ron St. Germaine records.. like Cro-mags?
If you know what that stuff is all about, then move into the Kyuss/sleep/ world... or even COC or men of porn (speaking of billy).
A lot of people cant hang with references like this, so if you can, you are probably capable of pursuing the right aesthetic... Converge? How about Scissorfight? We all know what Slayer sounds like... we all know what metallica sounds like.... but what about CRAW? Keelhaul? Jesus Lizard? Season To risk? ( i engineered a record for Season to risk a millin years ago).. hammerhead?
Not just the sevNDuSt type of stuff....

[Recycled_Brains]

Joel,

Which Unsanse record did you work on? Been wanting to check them out forever, but for some reason haven't yet.

Also, Don Fury just opened a new place in Troy, NY, which is minutes away from Albany (where I live). IIRC, he worked with Sick of it All way back when... used to rock that band a lot back in HS.

[Corey Y]

Reading farview's post I feel like I should reword what I said about amp tone to what it sounds like "at the time", "unmixed" or "through the monitors" and not "in the room". That's my vernacular not really translating outside my head I guess. My core issue there is I'm always trying to find the right mic choice or position to capture the sound as the guitarist wants it (and wants it to sit in the mix), before trying to reinvent the tone they crafted or mix the hell out of it mold it into something it didn't sound like in the first place. I've done both of those things as well though, when I had to, like I'm sure everyone has at different times.

I've also been curious about what Unsane album you recorded Joel. I read the article you wrote about it. I love Unsane, one of my all time favorite bands. You mentioned Scissorfight as well, another of my favorites. Good list there in general.

[Jon Nolan]

How about Scissorfight?

Dude! The 'Fight!!!

Best band from NH. Ever. (not like there's a long list, mind you. But really. So fucking good. They're from Newmarket, my town, in fact. Scissorfight. Damn.

[ScottEvans]

Love that Joel post. Don Fury! Scissorfight! (Players Club!)

I try to avoid doing trigger-core kind of records. I like using actual drum sounds, not doing any reamping... basically I try to apply traditional engineering to make big, gnarly sounding shit. My sessions are often pretty short and not in great rooms, so avoiding those tricks often means living with a lot of limitations (in my tracking, or in the tones we had that day, or whatever) but IMO those are the things that make a record sound cool -- even though it may be hard to see that at the time.

That Unsane record Joel did ("Blood Run") is actually a good example -- it sounds pretty weird. (that's the "no EQ" record, right Joel?) It's very midrangey and dark. But it has a ton of character and you know it as soon as it comes on. I'll take that kind of character over a perfectly coiffed tech/core thing.

Living with limitations usually means that I have to work really hard at mix time to get everything working. I always beat myself up about that, but I guess if you're trying to make records that sit next to the good stuff, it's going to be hard work.

Anyway, rah rah real sounding records. I realize this doesn't apply for lots of genre stuff.

I'm not sure I can come up with much of use beyond all that though, it really is challenging for me to make dense, heavy heavy stuff work. Hm...

I love dynamics on vocals. Especially, but not only, if the vox are tracked in a shitty room. (mine often are.)
I do a lot of 2-3 mic setups on guitar; getting 2 to blend well is usually pretty doable and the 3rd is there as an option.
Turn the guitars down if you like drum sounds.
Mix into some kind of pretty aggressive compression if you want to anticipate what mastering will do to your mixes. Bye drums!
I like tracking basics live when I can, even in a small space. I don't care too much about isolation on guitar, but on bass it seems to make a big difference if I want to go 100% mic'd bass. Otherwise I usually end up doing a DI/mic blend. Squish and low-pass the DI, maybe highpass the mic a bit.
I like the SPL Transient Designer a lot on drums. I get a lot of mileage out of pulling out some attack from close mics (if the guy hits really hard), getting rid of kick or snare decay if it sounds shitty, etc.
Boy does it help to work with bands who can really pull off their shit.

[Andrew Schneider]

Yes - so happy to see the love for old Scissorfight records.

What I have seen through recording metal stuff for years is that all the technology and studio trickery has defined the sound of the genre and therefore homogenized it. The genre is in the same place as commercial country or commercial pop at this point, with the same tricks, techniques and plugins used to such a degree that the mainstream idea of metal has become stale and dead. I completely agree with Joel (not just for mentioning 4 bands that I have done a bunch of work with) that there are so many more pertinent references then the Warp style summer shed tour metal stuff. With complete respect to the goal of making a record that the band wants, I really try to avoid any of the go to tricks and leave all of it as a last resort. Try to use their $50 guitar and their $100 amp before you bring out your perfect Les Paul And Rectifier. Use their drums and work with all options before thinking about samples etc. Even let the bass player play with his fingers (here we go). If the band is metal than For sure the record will still be metal but will turn out as an original and unique recording. Just make it crazy and dangerous. I know for sure that there are a lot of people that are extremely hungry for that. Kurt's recording and those Converge records previously mentioned are amazing examples of this.

P.s., this is not the right mindset for making a lot of money making metal records ...

[farview]

P.s., this is not the right mindset for making a lot of money making metal records ...

Is there a mindset for making money with metal albums?

[trodden]

Keelhaul... Season To Risk

Hell yeah.

If the band is metal than For sure the record will still be metal but will turn out as an original and unique recording. Just make it crazy and dangerous. I know for sure that there are a lot of people that are extremely hungry for that. Kurt's recording and those Converge records previously mentioned are amazing examples of this.

P.s., this is not the right mindset for making a lot of money making metal records ...

totally.

[trodden]

that there are so many more pertinent references then the Warp style summer shed tour metal stuff.

ahahah awesome... totally well said.

[joel hamilton]

Yes - so happy to see the love for old Scissorfight records.

What I have seen through recording metal stuff for years is blah blah blah... etc...
...

I really only referenced them because of your work with them. You always make great heavy records. again and again.

[Brett Siler]

It makes me really happy to see TapeOp showing some love towards heavy music. I grew up on heavy stuff getting into the punk and hardcore scene in the mid to late 90's and still involved to this day. I did sound steadily for the last 5 years and did sound for touring metal bands regularly (gonna do sound for a Young Widows show next week, should be fun I like them), and have record mostly punk, hardcore and metal bands since I started my own hardcore punk band in the late 90's (didn't get serious with recording until 02 though). Kinda good timing with this thread. i just finished recording an mixing two songs that have a grindcore and metal vibe to them. You can listen them here if you like clicky me I find it to be a fun a rewarding process of recording and mixing heavy bands.

Well I mic stuff up like I would your typical rock band. Close mic the drums, spaced cardio overheads usually, I even like room mics on heavy drums sometimes, especially for slower to mid tempo stuff. I just got Drumagog and Beat Detective, and I haven't figured those out yet, so I have learned some tricks to go with out triggers.
If ithe drums aren't tracked with fully band live in the room, I like a mic really close inside the kick right up on the batter, and a condensor outside the kick. For fast stuff I'll usually duplicate the inside kick track and do some really heavy serial compression and gating on one kick, I really like Waves Audiotrack for this cause it has Eq, compression and gating (and the gate is nice not much weird clicky sounds turing on and off) in one plug and no latency. The other inside kick track just a little compression and either a little expandor or none at all. EQ wise I'll make one snappy and the other a little rounder and blend the two. You gotta really watch the control of low end on the kicks in fast music. I have no problem HP the kick or even sometimes using a multiband on the kick. I may HP filter 50 hz or so (one band I even did up to 100 hz) on the snappy kick drum and maybe a little on the other track if needed. Boosting very carefully on a little section of the remained lowend if needed, but sometimes not. For highend on it some of the snappiness is the to 5khz-10khz range, as oppose to the typical suggestion for rock in the 2khz-4khz range.
I may follow a similar method with snare, and duplicate one snare with heavy compression and gating. The other track will be a little more "natural" sounding with only mild compression or gating. If you get a lot of hit hat bleed into your snare mic I like to de-ess one the tracks quite a bit and maybe other other only a little. Toms, I may manually gate with editing, but sometimes not. You may want to deaden the close mics a little if its fast music and you are gonna be compressing a lot, but not too much to when it kills the tone. Overheads, I keep nuetral or maybe a little HP filter on them. Room mics, like you would any rock band, compression maybe some eq or de-essing if needed, blend to taste.

Guitars get close mics and its been different a lot times. The example above is just one 57 right up on the grill, and a little bit of room mic on "Hey Schmitt...". If I'm isolating the guitar and he in his own seperate room, i usually like two mics on the grill and a room mic. One bright mic/speaker/placement and one darker/bassier textured and room for overall amp sound and ambience. I like to blend those and get an appropriate sound. Sometimes the guitarist might double his performance if there is only one guitar in the band, sometimes not. Sometimes I like to compress the darker bassier mic to keep lowend under control or tighten up the amp if it needs it. Tonally I try to find a nice blend of heaviness and clarity (unless they are going for fuzzed of sludge or buzzy thin black metal sound for aesthetic). I like midrange, but sometimes you get a little extra with the proximity from the close mics, so watch for that so it doesn't get muddy. Sometimes you may need to HP filter the mics, or one or two of them or none.

Bass, I usually like to mic up the amp or use a Sansamp. I approach it very similar to guitar, treble mic, bass mic, and sometimes an ambient mic. Really watch your control of the lowend on bass, especially for fast stuff. Compress the bassier mic and ambient and tighten them up. Sometimes I may use a multi-band compressor and really tweak or compress certain sections of the bass sound. I like to record a clean DI just in case the band is stuck on their tone but it won't fit in the mix.

Vocals, it's very different. I've done hand held 58's, I've done nice condensors, I've done where they are singing into a distorted halfstack (more than once too!). Typically though vocals aren't too different than you would a rock band. A little compression and stylistic choice of reverbs delays or dryness.

Overall I have found the controlling the lowend is very important and a nice balance, especially for fast music, will get you results that will make you happy.

[evilaudio]

You guys should check out work from Bill Metoyer, Harris Johns, Scott Burns, Tomas Skogsberg, Fredrik Nordstrom, Pytten (Norwegian Rock/Metal producer), Martin Birch, and Jack Endino!

Absolutely amazing sounding metal albums from these cats! I try to mold my MO around them (and Albini of course!). They're records you can turn up really loud and still sound incredible. I sincerely hope things return to that way.