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[Gregg Juke]

*raises hand* (again and again and again and again, etc.)

>>>>That's just my [outdated] experience though.<<<<

Not so outdated, Carl.

GJ

[Knights Who Say Neve]

My band plays for free regularly. I can't seem to convince my bandmates to do otherwise. Do they have low self esteem, or do they not want the hassle of booking paying gigs? Or perhaps there are no paying gigs to be found for a uncommercial, no covers band? I don't get it.

[jhharvest]

I occasionally work for free if it's for a non-profit organisation doing something good on a zero budget. I like to think it's donating my time and effort to charity.

[cutsnake]

"If you don't value your own work nobody else will." Really?

And is this value only measurable in $$$?

[casey campbell]

"If you don't value your own work nobody else will." Really?

And is this value only measurable in $$$?

well, i think that's the whole point. no one would ever call up their electricity company and say, "hey, i want free electricity because i'm a nice person, and if you do give me free electricity, i'll tell all of my friends what a great company you really are."

when people are paid for what they do, it shows a level of appreciation and respect. the money is not the point.

i myself have 4 children - from 5 to one month. if im going to spend hours away from my wife and kids, then i better get paid. it's a matter of self-worth, and time is very expensive. you can never get back the time you've spent away from your family and/or loved ones... no one will ever say, "man, i sure do wish i would have spent more time editing out of tune vocals" on their death bed.

my best friend is this incredible musician, and to this day he pays me for every project i master for him. i would work for free for him if he asked me to, but he's always wanted to pay me for my time because he sees the worth in what i do.

i stopped working for free a long time ago. i saw the problem was with me. i'd work for free for someone, and then they wouldn't appreciate me. well, duh!

[Peterson Goodwyn]

Amen to that. Ever since I started freelancing I have never asked anyone to do a project for free.

[Jon Nolan]

"If you don't value your own work nobody else will." Really?

And is this value only measurable in $$$?

when people are paid for what they do, it shows a level of appreciation and respect. the money is not the point.

i myself have 4 children - from 5 to one month. if im going to spend hours away from my wife and kids, then i better get paid. it's a matter of self-worth, and time is very expensive. you can never get back the time you've spent away from your family and/or loved ones... no one will ever say, "man, i sure do wish i would have spent more time editing out of tune vocals" on their death bed.

my best friend is this incredible musician, and to this day he pays me for every project i master for him. i would work for free for him if he asked me to, but he's always wanted to pay me for my time because he sees the worth in what i do.

i stopped working for free a long time ago. i saw the problem was with me. i'd work for free for someone, and then they wouldn't appreciate me. well, duh!

yep! i agree, - when i charge for my services, i respect *myself*, and my own time/skill. i'm a big believer in the idea that i teach people how to treat me. i've got three chillins and an awesome wife. it's up to me to find the healthy balance of my time.

if i was 20, and starting out, and had zero overhead, i might feel differently about this. i did work for almost nothing (and nothing!) when i was starting, but there were caveats...

also, editing out of tune vocals makes me feel like i'm on my deathbed.

[fossiltooth]

I used to be an ardent disciple of the "Never Work For Free" camp.

Nowadays, I'm not so sure. I think we "mostly" shouldn't work for free.

There are exceptions: what if you want to learn a skill? Break into a new market? Give a gift to someone who's helped you? Gain legitimate exposure?

Playing a random coffeeshop for a crowd of eight isn't going to provide anyone with great exposure. But it could teach any new musician a lot about performing and promotion if they're willing to learn.

What if you're editing an audiobook for the first time, or doing your first classical recording? It might be a great time to work for free. Especially if you're passionate but unproven or having trouble finding outlets. There are plenty of professional musicians who play on TV shows for free, and bloggers who write guest posts at major outlets for free. They get genuine, measurable exposure.

There's charity work people do for reasons other than money. Look at our board's own Joel Hamilton who went to Africa to record for Triad Trust.

I walk large breed dogs at an animal shelter every morning. I try to schedule around it whenever I can. And right now, I'm taking twenty minutes to write a thoughtful, long-winded post on a message board for free. I hope that in return, maybe five people will care. They'll read it, think I'm not a complete idiot, and maybe check out some of the work I do get paid to write. If it's any good, they might talk about it. Everybody wins.

Can you do something similar in your own life? Probably. You gotta pay the bills too. Lord, I know. But if you love something, find ways to do it, no matter what, no excuses. None.

If you play music and focus on developing a show people would beg you to pay and see, people will beg to pay and see it. Eventually. I promise. It happens if you're willing to stick through failure and devote the time it takes to get good. Money can't be the only focus. If it is, it'll never come together the way you want. If your only aim is survival, survival is all you'll get.

Now, go get paid and do awesome things for free too!

Godspeed recordists,

[Gentleman Jim]

Fossiltooth FTW.

[speedydave]

But if you love something, find ways to do it, no matter what, no excuses. None.

Long-time lurker here.

I recorded other people's music for quite some time for free... because I was learning. I love the craft, sounds, music, gear... Last month I decided to turn my passion into a business and now charge people for my experience, acquired skill and ear.

My small independent studio / label isn't a moneymaking venture, I do not plan to quit my highly lucrative day job. However, by trading my time and skills for cash I can legitimately devote more time and re-invest the money I make back into the studio.

I think like fossiltooth... there is plenty of gray area.

[casey campbell]

I used to be an ardent disciple of the "Never Work For Free" camp.

Nowadays, I'm not so sure. I think we "mostly" shouldn't work for free.

There are exceptions: what if you want to learn a skill? Break into a new market? Give a gift to someone who's helped you? Gain legitimate exposure?

Playing a random coffeeshop for a crowd of eight isn't going to provide anyone with great exposure. But it could teach any new musician a lot about performing and promotion if they're willing to learn.

What if you're editing an audiobook for the first time, or doing your first classical recording? It might be a great time to work for free. Especially if you're passionate but unproven or having trouble finding outlets. There are plenty of professional musicians who play on TV shows for free, and bloggers who write guest posts at major outlets for free. They get genuine, measurable exposure.

There's charity work people do for reasons other than money. Look at our board's own Joel Hamilton who went to Africa to record for Triad Trust.

I walk large breed dogs at an animal shelter every morning. I try to schedule around it whenever I can. And right now, I'm taking twenty minutes to write a thoughtful, long-winded post on a message board for free. I hope that in return, maybe five people will care. They'll read it, think I'm not a complete idiot, and maybe check out some of the work I do get paid to write. If it's any good, they might talk about it. Everybody wins.

Can you do something similar in your own life? Probably. You gotta pay the bills too. Lord, I know. But if you love something, find ways to do it, no matter what, no excuses. None.

If you play music and focus on developing a show people would beg you to pay and see, people will beg to pay and see it. Eventually. I promise. It happens if you're willing to stick through failure and devote the time it takes to get good. Money can't be the only focus. If it is, it'll never come together the way you want. If your only aim is survival, survival is all you'll get.

Now, go get paid and do awesome things for free too!

Godspeed recordists,

i think you make some great points. i think the gist is not letting people take advantage of you in the name of "good exposure."

on the flip side of that, volunteerism is at an all time low. working for a soup kitchen, or getting involved at an orphanage in my mind, is much different then recording a 5 song demo for a hard core band wanting to get into bars to get chicks.

your post reminded me of this video:

http://vimeo.com/13023190

[crow]

on the flip side of that, volunteerism is at an all time low. working for a soup kitchen, or getting involved at an orphanage in my mind, is much different then recording a 5 song demo for a hard core band wanting to get into bars to get chicks.

Excellent point.

[joel hamilton]

on the flip side of that, volunteerism is at an all time low. working for a soup kitchen, or getting involved at an orphanage in my mind, is much different then recording a 5 song demo for a hard core band wanting to get into bars to get chicks.

Excellent point.

Which is why I continue to volunteer to record people in circumstances where they may NEVER be recorded in any way.

I think it is clear that the band that COULD pay, as opposed to people in a very tough situation in a very rough part of the 3rd world would be in different categories altogether...

Its a valid point: dont record people for free. dont do anything for "free"....

We are simply carpet bombing ourselves with false currency, rather than volunteering with pride and purpose that charges the value of our craft with the spirit of intent and generosity.

[casey campbell]

on the flip side of that, volunteerism is at an all time low. working for a soup kitchen, or getting involved at an orphanage in my mind, is much different then recording a 5 song demo for a hard core band wanting to get into bars to get chicks.

Excellent point.

Which is why I continue to volunteer to record people in circumstances where they may NEVER be recorded in any way.

I think it is clear that the band that COULD pay, as opposed to people in a very tough situation in a very rough part of the 3rd world would be in different categories altogether...

Its a valid point: dont record people for free. dont do anything for "free"....

We are simply carpet bombing ourselves with false currency, rather than volunteering with pride and purpose that charges the value of our craft with the spirit of intent and generosity.

yes! absolutely. this reminds me of the dude during the great depression who went around and recorded folk, blues, americana, etc in the rural parts of america, and thus later the music he recorded inspired a whole generation of song writers, and continues to inspire to this day.

[Gregg Juke]

Alan Lomax?

GJ