Flutter echo

[Sculli]

Wondering what's best to control the FE in my room. I've read various threads on the acoustics forums. 7'10" ceilings, tile floor. L shape room 23' x 34'. Super chunks in corners.Diffusion on back and one short wall. Absorption on all walls.Only on ceiling above mix area.Sounds pretty good. But bad flutter with percussive sounds All suggestions welcome. Thanks for your time!
Peace,
Kevin

[Gregg Juke]

A little hard to understand what you posted, but if the issue is right at/above the mix position, maybe try putting up a hanging absorptive "cloud" just above where you sit...

GJ

[Rod Gervais]

Wondering what's best to control the FE in my room. I've read various threads on the acoustics forums. 7'10" ceilings, tile floor. L shape room 23' x 34'. Super chunks in corners.Diffusion on back and one short wall. Absorption on all walls.Only on ceiling above mix area.Sounds pretty good. But bad flutter with percussive sounds All suggestions welcome. Thanks for your time!
Peace,
Kevin

Not a clue without some pics and sketches.........

[Sculli]

Only treatment on ceiling is above mix area. Not the problem. Rod, don't know how to post pics here. http://www.myspace.com/onemindrnc/photos Thanks for replies!

[Rod Gervais]

Only treatment on ceiling is above mix area. Not the problem. Rod, don't know how to post pics here. http://www.myspace.com/onemindrnc/photos Thanks for replies!

Are you talking about when mixing or when recording?

I would get a cloud over the drums for sure - that hard ceiling is problematic (typically you want a hard floor and soft ceiling) - in a room like that i generally cloud the entire room, holding the cloud about 2' away from the wall.

I can also see where reflections of the ceiling - into the window behind the drums - might make it back to your ears at the desk.

BTW _ I would also widen those speakers out a bit - that monitor in front of them can play havoc with your mix......

can't see the left side of the room - do you have treatment on that wall at the mirror point for the speakers?

[Sculli]

Yes, All mirrored reflections treated. Mixes are translating well. My concern is during recording and I really don't want to kill the room. The flutter seems to be toward the middle of the room(open area). Thanks Rod! I will cloud the ceiling. The first tune is the only one recorded in this space with even less treatment. I don't hear the problem i'm having. Do you?Anyway, Thanks so much for your time!
Peace,
Kevin

[Rod Gervais]

Yes, All mirrored reflections treated. Mixes are translating well. My concern is during recording and I really don't want to kill the room. The flutter seems to be toward the middle of the room(open area). Thanks Rod! I will cloud the ceiling. The first tune is the only one recorded in this space with even less treatment. I don't hear the problem i'm having. Do you?Anyway, Thanks so much for your time!
Peace,
Kevin

Kevin,

Nice tunes - they translate well in the "real world"........

it is pretty hard to really get a good sense of what might be causing this based just on those pictures - very hard to put a perfectly clear picture of the room inside my head........

Do you use gobo's in front of the drums when you play live in the room? The reason I ask this is that (even forgetting the room surfaces themselves) objects in the room can also be sources of reflections that cause flutter echo.

Happy to be of assistance,

Rod

[JWL]

Great advice from Rod (no surprise there.... )

Just remember that flutter echo is caused by 2 parallel, reflective surfaces. You can experiment to see which 2 surfaces are causing it (though sometimes it can be more than one pair of surfaces), use a big thick blanket and hang it on the wall temporarily, and go through where the flutter is occurring and clap your hands and see if it affects the flutter. Move the blanket around (also do the floor or ceiling) until it goes away. When it does, you know which surface(s) you must treat.

[Sculli]

Thanks Rod and JWL. Rod no gobos in front of drums. I put a room mic up for the first time and could really hear the flutter. I knew it was there, but didn't seem to effect my recordings.Not alot of hard objects in the areas I hear the flutter.Could be tho. I just want to get it under control to have more options. JWL, I think you're right it's multiple parallel surfaces. It seems to be coming from several directions sometimes.But almost never from where i'm clapping. I'll try the thick blanket. Thanks again to all!
Peace,
Kevin

[Rod Gervais]

Thanks Rod and JWL. Rod no gobos in front of drums. I put a room mic up for the first time and could really hear the flutter. I knew it was there, but didn't seem to effect my recordings.Not alot of hard objects in the areas I hear the flutter.Could be tho. I just want to get it under control to have more options. JWL, I think you're right it's multiple parallel surfaces. It seems to be coming from several directions sometimes.But almost never from where i'm clapping. I'll try the thick blanket. Thanks again to all!
Peace,
Kevin

There doesn't have to be hard objects in the area where you hear the flutter - you will hear flutter at points BETWEEN hard objects and the source (it's doesn't have to be between 2 hard objects - can be just one hard object and the source......

For example - a reflection coming off of the screen of the monitor I see in the pictures could cause flutter echo between the drums and the screen......... or between another sound source and the screen......

Flutter echo is caused by a relatively tight reflection returning along (or very close to) it's original path........ as such it is an issue with high mids and higher frequencies - it does not occur with low frequency transmissions.....

The problem can certainly be exasperated if there is a build up of this signal between 2 hard surfaces with a continuing signal from the source..

Rod

[Sculli]

Thanks Rod for making my brain grow!

[mysteriousmammal]

If you have a hard tiled floor, the entire ceiling should be treated with absorbsion or diffusion. That is your problem. If you don't want a "dead" room, take the absorbers off of one wall and put them on the ceiling. Never have parallel hard surfaces. That is your problem, and it's really easy to fix. (except hanging stuff on the ceiling is a pain in the ass, of course!) :) The other easy thing would be to put a large rug down, but that will make your room more dead in the wrong place IMO. You're better off with a live floor and an absorbant ceiling, to focus your cymbals and give your snare some "pop". You can check out my site link below for pics, just click on the slide show on the top right. This room is still pretty live if I close up some of those absorbers on the walls. They're on hinges. You can see little spaces on the ceiling that are bare. If you clap right below them, flutter echo. I actually need more treatment, but it's very localized so I can get away with it. That room of yours looks really, really live! I don't think you're in any danger of it becoming dead.

[Sculli]

Thanks MM. I will be treating the ceiling as soon as possible. I'm pretty sure it's all the parallel walls. So more diffusion and absorption all round.