BLA mod my Audiofire 12, or save up for something else?

[CedarSound]

Hey guys,

I have been using an Audiofire 12 for a few years now, and have been pretty happy with my recordings, but lately have been wondering if a more expensive unit might "up my game"... I have good mics, pres, monitors, and have treated my room...so, all of that is covered at this point (well, you know). I know that the discussion about converters can get quite crazy sometimes, which is why I am avoiding another forum which will remain nameless, and asking this here.

So, I originally was going to save up for a Lynx Aurora or a RME UFX or something, just based on my readings on the Interwebs. Then, I was on the Black Lion site the other day, and saw that they have an upgrade for the Audiofire now for about $400 bucks. Also, they have a deal with their microclock as well, so the whole thing would run around $700 plus shipping.

Has anyone here modded their Audiofire? I know lots have folks have gotten BLA mods in the past, but I have also seen a few microclocks for sale in the buy/sell forum. So, now that the mods/clocks have been around for awhile, thought I'd see what you guys think.

Here's another interesting twist.. BLA also mods the UFX.. and it's like $750 on top of the $2300 price tag. I know you can probably make anything better, but if the RME is that much better than an Audiofire in the first place, it's like..huh?

Thoughts? Thanks!

Jonathan

[kslight]

Here's another interesting twist.. BLA also mods the UFX.. and it's like $750 on top of the $2300 price tag. I know you can probably make anything better, but if the RME is that much better than an Audiofire in the first place, it's like..huh?

Makes you think its all a scam, doesn't it? Or maybe that pretty much all the interface makers are using the same basic chips/etc...same junk in a slightly different package..

I am pretty opinionated when it comes to BLA and others, so you can take it or leave it...but I tend to think its a better idea to sell and upgrade to a better unit rather than spend a lot of money on a modification. Best case scenario you're just going to end up with an $xxx unit with a few different $.0x parts in it, especially since $400 is at the "low-end" of BLA's modding services, that kind of makes me think that they aren't doing very much at all to the Audiofire 12...(most of their mods seem to be $700+). I still don't think, for example that an Audiofire 12 (or other similar interface) with a BLA mod is going to be in the same ballpark as converters that are really good to begin with. And even then, while I understand and recognize the difference between good converters and bad converters, I really think that once you get past a certain level, the impact of the quality of conversion is comparatively minor to most other aspects of the recording chain, especially price/performance ratio. Unless you're syncing your interface to other digital gear I also tend to question the benefit of adding an external clock when you're already paying for an "upgrade."

But YMMV of course.

[The Scum]

At one time, conversion was a pariah, and rightfully so. "16 bit" converters were only generating 14 bits of audio data. Clocking wasn't well understood, and was truly problematic.

If you want to experience what was wrong, an original blackface ADAT, almost any DAT recorder, or an Akai S1000 will exhibit conversion problems.

By about the year 2000, a lot of those issues were understood and solved...check out all of the papers about it in the AES journal from that time frame. Converter chips got better, and designers were more savvy in their application. I agree that once you get above the bottom of the barrel, things sound pretty good.

I've used stock Audiofire 12's with zero complaints. They're not sexy, but they're definitely functional.

Can you hear any deficiencies in your process, that are definitely attributable to conversion? If not, keep working, growing your skills and training your ears, saving your pennies until an obvious need arises - the address that need.

[ott0bot]

I have a tendency to think most issues with the quality of converters has more to so with the analog gain staging prior to conversion. For example, the stock Digi 003 loses a lot of dynamic range and detail when the signal is too hot, but when your incoming signal is around -12 to -20 dBFS it sounds just fine. oddly enough that is usually the optimal input level for many conveters, but people tend to track hotter than that. Other higher quality converters seem to be much more forgiving. the lynx aurora 8 will retain its clarity at much hotter levels, so the analog gain staging can be more varied without issue.

my experience with The BLA modded 003 confirms my suspicions, as a friend and I used my stock unit and his modded unit in a series if overdubs and various locations. our consensus was that the modded converters were less prone to loss of clarity and dynamic range at hotter levels. in addition the stock pre's had a lot less head room and a significantly worse Signal to noise ratio. the improved clock increased the quality of playback as well.

all that being said, I don't feel that there is a whole lot value added to the unit as other high end converts can now be purchased at similar prices to the units they mod when you add initial cost of unit, shipping, and modification. when you go to resell the unit you'll find you probably won't be able to recoup much of your investment either.

as far as the auduofire goes, you may notice an over all improvement, but personally I would save your penneies and invest it something that is a bigger upgrade, and use your audiofire for a mobile rig or as trade for some other gear.

[CedarSound]

I really appreciate the responses so far..

I generally track my incoming levels around -18 dBFS, so that should be hitting the converters where they like it.. I can't say that there are any specific problems that I can specifically point to the converters and say "this is holding me back". I guess it's just that I have invested money in the more important things for the last few years (instruments, mics, pres, monitors, room treatment) and kind of feel like this last piece of the puzzle would kick my quality up to another level. I have no proof of this, though can't help but notice that a lot of folks invest in this part of the chain, and I wonder what I might be missing.

I have owned a few other Echo units over the years (Mia, Layla, Indigo), and an MBox 2 mini... and I get lots of compliments on my recordings, I'm pretty good with what I have...just like a lot of us on here, I am always striving to be better..does the interface hold me back? I don't know, i've never had a high end interface or converters in my studio to find out. I guess I should rent one for a couple of days and see for myself.

As far as the the BLA angle, and I must admit that you guys have helped to confirm some of my reservations when it comes to resale value, for one..

[Dakota]

Really great contributions from above posters, +1 on all that.

And yes, on the cheap modern gear it's often the audio stages before and after the converters that's the worst bottleneck.

Yes, renting some nice converters may really help to answer your question - is that your bottleneck now?

2 cents on the BLA option - I don't know how fancy their Audiofire mod is, how much it would be effective bang for buck for you. I do know that with the BLA 002 "sig series" mod I have, which is the mod they most shook down over time and had been their bread and butter reputation maker - it really is all it's cracked up to be, including as ott0bot indicates, doesn't get collapsy at higher input and output levels. Like spendy pro audio gear tends to behave. But the sig series 002/003 mod is much more money than the 400 you indicate for the audiofire mod, so it couldn't be expected to be in the same result range.

I'm not worried about the resale issue, as I'm not going to be selling the 002 - it's as good as anything in that total price range is going to be for the near to mid future. Your pro/con decision factors are going to be somewhat different.