widening stereo sources in a mix

[joninc]

I'm looking for some new ideas on ways to take something like an acoustic guitar (that's stereo miced and hardpanned) and make it wider - more apparent on the sides than in the center. I get sent stuff to mix like this a lot - even though it's stereo, it's crowding the center of the mix and a lot of plugs that I have (waves Center, Ghz matrix) have m/s volume sliders but really , even at extreme settings - it hardly sounds different AT ALL.

how do you create space in the center without just making it mono and panning the whole thing off to one side?

I've also played around with scooping the fundamental a bit on a eq with M/S - like the kirchoff - helps a bit - not as dramatic as I'd like though....

sidenote: I mixed a few projects that were recorded in ableton in the past year and it seems to have some unique ways of widening - using a haas delay etc,,, ways i could not replicate in Cubase. would love to understand that better toO!

[A.David.MacKinnon]

A really short stereo delay can help (along the lines of the ableton haas delays you mentioned). I generally use different times on each side and usually set the ms rate in the teens or twenties. A good small room reverb can also be a big help. I have a few roll your own IRs that I use on acoustic instruments. They don't sound like much on their own but they really help add a realistic space in the mix.
Widening plugs can help but I find them most useful on reverb returns vs on the main track. I did a few ambient projects amd used lots of widening on the reverb returns for the lead instruments. I was worried that if I used them on the dry tracks things would get funky if the mix collapsed to mono. Treating the reverb keeps the main mix intact in mono, things just get a bit dryer.

All that said, I feel your pain. As a mixer I get lots of things tracked in stereo and often they just feel like wide mono. Sometimes the best move is to pick the best side, throw the other away and work from a mono track. Then you can put it wherever you want.

[digitaldrummer]

A lot of DAWS (like I think Garageband, Logic, Cakewalk) always want to default to stereo tracks when exporting and sometimes when recording. So sometimes you end up with stereo tracks that were really mono tracks (or should be mono tracks). So invert one side and see if they null? If so, then just split them and use one side (or sometimes I'll just collapse the panning to 0) and then use them as mono tracks (like they originally were). Then you can pan stuff however you normally would.

I have some EQs, comps, limiters, etc. that have M/S or width controls that I'll sometimes use on a mix/master. But I'd rather pan mono tracks (and have someone double the part if needed, then pan that) to get wideness, although I know if you are just getting tracks to mix you don't always have that option.

I've also been considering this -- https://www.raisingjakestudios.com/util ... Mid:47Side
since I saw Larry mention he uses it to widen reverbs, or at least M/S process them to take out some of the middle. I've got the free stereo swapper from RJ and I've mentioned before it's great (to make sure your ears hear the same balance and to easily collapse a mix to mono).

[MoreSpaceEcho]

So sometimes you end up with stereo tracks that were really mono tracks (or should be mono tracks). So invert one side and see if they null?

Good point. If you're cranking the width on an m/s plugin and nothing seems to change, it's likely it's just a mono source.

This is a great utility plugin that makes adjusting width real easy (does lots of other useful stuff too), and it's free with a DMG account:

https://dmgaudio.com/products_trackcontrol.php

[digitaldrummer]

I forgot to mention that sometimes (and it really has to be the right kind of track because it definitely does not work on everything...) I'll use the SoundToys MicroShift plugin. Obviously it's made for vocals but sometimes it's cool, or weird, or both.

[Nick Sevilla]

Look at the "Stereo" waveform. Is it truly Stereo? Many, and I mean MANY amateur recorders, even pro musicians, record stuff in "Stereo" but with only one mic. There are also DAWs that you set if they record in Stereo or Mono, and the artiste may not know that is happening.

Whatever the case, when I cannot get enough width out of a source, I end up using only a Mono (one side, pick the better sounding one), panning that hard, and using a delay and a little reverb or even some chorus or phaser, panned the opposite. Another nifty trick is to change the PHASE of one of the two channels. It may sound wacky by itself but fine in a mix. Even try a plugin in that change change the phase by degrees , not just reverse.

[trodden]

A lot of DAWS (like I think Garageband, Logic, Cakewalk) always want to default to stereo tracks when exporting and sometimes when recording. So sometimes you end up with stereo tracks that were really mono tracks (or should be mono tracks).

Look at the "Stereo" waveform. Is it truly Stereo? Many, and I mean MANY amateur recorders, even pro musicians, record stuff in "Stereo" but with only one mic. There are also DAWs that you set if they record in Stereo or Mono, and the artiste may not know that is happening.

One of my biggest pet peeves with some DAWs as well as getting a turd polishing gig from someone who has no idea of what they're doing. I'm always down to help people out, sit in with them and give them some pointers and such. I feel it's my responsibility with the music community I'm involved with and depending on. But fuck, sometimes I'm just worn the fuck out.

Just bitching. Mariner's baseball opening day was yesterday and was a long day for TV audio and get to do it again on Saturday and Sunday. Luckily today was a day off for me.

[drumsound]

Look at the "Stereo" waveform. Is it truly Stereo? Many, and I mean MANY amateur recorders, even pro musicians, record stuff in "Stereo" but with only one mic. There are also DAWs that you set if they record in Stereo or Mono, and the artiste may not know that is happening.

Whatever the case, when I cannot get enough width out of a source, I end up using only a Mono (one side, pick the better sounding one), panning that hard, and using a delay and a little reverb or even some chorus or phaser, panned the opposite. Another nifty trick is to change the PHASE of one of the two channels. It may sound wacky by itself but fine in a mix. Even try a plugin in that change change the phase by degrees , not just reverse.

I remember Chris Shaw mentioning a plugin that allows you to check to see if tracks are really stereo. You might search for that.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I remember Chris Shaw mentioning a plugin that allows you to check to see if tracks are really stereo. You might search for that.

Any phase meter plug will show you. I use stereo tool when I get a mix that's all stereo tracks. Sometimes looking at the waveform makes it obvious sometimes not.

That's said, I feel like this conversation has gone off topic a little. There are lots of times where the stereo track really is stereo but sounds very narrow, almost mono. Acoustic guitar close mic'd in stereo in a dead room can often be this way.

[Nick Sevilla]

I remember Chris Shaw mentioning a plugin that allows you to check to see if tracks are really stereo. You might search for that.

You can always have the files on two mono tracks, and flip the phase on one...

[Colorblind]

+1 on MicroShift. I use it more often for this purpose than for its other functions. Doesn't work all the time, but when it does, it's great.

[vvv]

a trick I use occasionally is to play back a track or submix and mic the monitor a few feet or more away, or in the hallway, etc., then pan the mic'd track somewhat opposite from the original

I do this when I get stuck with bad drum tracks, especially

I sometimes just use mic's to get a different EQ on the mic'd track, but will also use that track into a reverb, then mixed along with the original track, which may or may not get a reverb

quick and dirty, sometimes duping an effected track (like a chorused guitar) and then compressing the hell out of it and panning opposite can embiggen shite

and yep, panned delays at like .02 can help

[T-rex]

I use Microshift as well. There is a free widener plugin from izotope that I just found out about and use occasionally. Also, I don’t know if it’s still free but softube had a small free bundle that had the Drawmer S73 plugin. It has a widening setting and i really like it. You can adjust the width as well as the mix %. Someone I’ll use this on the master and automate to widen the choruses out as well.

I got a project recently all in stereo and all the tracks I checked were just mono recorded or bounced out in stereo EXCEPT for one guitar with a stereo delay that I completely missed and had to reintroduce in the first mix revision. So yeah I messed that up by assuming there were all like that. Gotta check em all!