not sure where to put this but i think everyone should see

[Brian]

Don't read "flaming me" into this please.

LOL
*** RANT ON *****
Geez!
Get some perspective - what we are talking about here is a recreational activity -

It was my full time JOB, it an't some half assed recreational activity for me.

its not brain surgery.
Who cares if its mediocre!!!!

I do when I'm working on it.

Applying the same twisted insecure logic - should we also say
"Don't play basketball unless you are Michael Jordan"
"Don't write poetry unless you are Walt Whitman"
"Don't sing unless you are Pavarotti"
Don't do anything (recreational) unless you are an expert. Really!?

Clearly you are talking about the non-pro level. I'm not. Apples and oranges.

Where do you guys get the gall to say you are the only people allowed to do some activity, What? are you putting yourselves on the same level as doctors?

Not at all, more like this, people who succesfully make their living at something who are suddenly glutted due to the forces I described find themselves displaced and $80 billion gone from the entire biz spread across thousands of families, artists, business support, admin, etc.

LOL

"Well I guess some people will die because that record didn't have all the real talent associated with it"

That isn't my point.

Get real - music is a recreational activity which was co-opted by a business
there was music BEFORE there was a music business.

Who appointed you god of what everyone else should do because of your opinion about this business?
Krasilovsky? I doubt it.

In fact the entire music business is premised on the public putting down their own instruments and coming to the "channels" for their music needs.

Not true.

Used to be the music business meant selling "published" song books for people to play in their own homes - I guess that was "dark age" because of the flood of no talent people playing music for themselves.

Still happens.

Can't you read what you are writing here?

Add me to the list of people who still think its better for every one to join the "cacophony" of everyone playing the music they want.

Nop one is stopping them or even positing they should, but, should they upset an established market?
Lets say you sell insurance during the week as your "real non recreational living" like music was mine.
How about I flood he market with cheap insurance all around you because I can and you work for free from now on? Won't it be cool that all those people have insurance because you were so cool as to sell it for free?

The other thing to consider is that the majority of popular music now is based on "un-trained" kids using equipment the "wrong" way and creating genres of music which the "experts" could not come up with by themselves.

I have no issue with that.

You are so vocal now about being "trained" and approved - but go in your own studio and try to copy the latest fad sound created by some kid who didn't listen to the rules.

Too easy.

I think individually (as well as an industry) we have to look at ourselves and what we bring to the table - if all you had to add were the things a kid can do on his computer now - then the problem was not with the kid...

*** RANT OFF ***

Agreed.

[Brian]

I would rather have people create their own (possibly amateurish) music than merely be mindless consumers of commercially produced product. They will likely become better informed music consumers in the process.

Unfortunately what this has done is make your worst nightmare more common that art. Sorry.

In many times and places, art was something people just did. Not for monetary gain or fame, but as a form of self-expression or even just to kill time. Perhaps we are returning to a situation like that again. I can't help but think it's a good thing for more people to have the means to express themselves creatively.

So what? There was never a shortage of instruments an they cost no less today.

The fact that fewer people had access to the means to create and distribute music in the past did not necessarily result in better music but certainly limited listening options.

It also doesn't mean that all music was made for nothing but commercial crap. False dilemma.

I suppose there is a glut now, but we also have powerful tools at our disposal to help us find stuff we might like.

Not nearly powerfull enough.

[fossiltooth]

All I can say is that making music (or any form of art) is a God-given right that's built into all of our DNA. (Thanks evolution!)

A few generations ago, any family that could afford to buy a piano generally would. If they were into it, they'd buy sheet music and go to concerts and generally be excited about the fact that music is kind of awesome. Learning music fed appreciation of music, and vice-versa.

Today, we have guitars and DAWS and all sorts of other neat stuff instead a spinet in every middle class living room. I wouldn't complain about enthusiasts buying pianos and sheet music - Why should I complain about this?

If you really look at the situation, it's easy to recognize that Chopin and Beethoven didn't have access to significantly more or better technology than a decently-equipped amateur. Today is no different. To tell you the truth, I don't really see the problem!

[Brian]

Not flaming, but, ...

All I can say is that making music (or any form of art) is a God-given right that's built into all of our DNA. (Thanks evolution!)

Tell my tone deaf brother that. He won't believe you or follow you on that.

A few generations ago, any family that could afford to buy a piano generally would. If they were into it, they'd buy sheet music and go to concerts and generally be excited about the fact that music is kind of awesome. Learning music fed appreciation of music, and vice-versa.

Right they bought sheet music written by greats, not their next door neighbors. Those that really had talent/(practiced a bit) got good or even great and maybe even made a career. Right?
Not every person who bought a piano because they could decided they were "star material" and then recorded and glutted the market or even sold sheet music of really badly done stuff, mediocre stuff, or, pretty good but not great stuff.
They played in their houses and for friends and didn't charge a nickel usually.
THAT is where the free music was worth it's price and more.

Today, we have guitars and DAWS and all sorts of other neat stuff instead a spinet in every middle class living room. I wouldn't complain about enthusiasts buying pianos and sheet music - Why should I complain about this?

We had guitars back then too.
Why should you worry about this? Because now anyone can and will destroy an established market if it boosts their ego and they can't think further than the end of their nose. Pianos and sheet music made by greats don't destroy markets, they create them, markets for pianos and sheet music, they don't glut airwaves or markets.
Every kid with a half ass DAW and loops, autotune/melodyne, beat detective, and the like CAN destroy a market with a glut of product and he product doesn't have to be good either.

If you really look at the situation, it's easy to recognize that Chopin and Beethoven didn't have access to significantly more or better technology than a decently-equipped amateur. Today is no different. To tell you the truth, I don't really see the problem!

WRONG. Chopin and Beethoven were not just some decently equipped amateurs! I haven't heard one amateur that even compares to either of those two.
You don't see the problem only because you don't want to.
I'm not against people who do their best to be great getting a share of an established market, no matter what, but, that isn't what's happening here. What's happening is infinitely more seedy, nasty, filthy, disgusting and worse than any horrible thing record companies used to perpetrate on a few, this is a massive version of the same thing by anyone who can and the enabling of any to be able to JUST to destroy the American music market. BY CHINA. Who's plan, CHINA, RUSSIA, and IRAN's.
All we have to do to counter is not play that game, but you try telling a kid that they're a patsy in an old man's economic warfare program and they won't believe you.

[joelpatterson]

...Because now anyone can and will destroy an established market if ...

I seriously, honestly and without malice aforethought have no idea what that is supposedly to mean, and I used to think I understood the English language fairly well.

The glut of amateur recordings is doing WHAT to any market? Aside from highlighting the vast gulf between what is marketable and what is amateurish hobbyism?

In other words, NOTHING? That's what I thought!

[Brian]

...Because now anyone can and will destroy an established market if ...

I seriously, honestly and without malice aforethought have no idea what that is supposedly to mean, and I used to think I understood the English language fairly well.

The glut of amateur recordings is doing WHAT to any market? Aside from highlighting the vast gulf between what is marketable and what is amateurish hobbyism?

In other words, NOTHING? That's what I thought!

I agree with you on the matter of taste. I also agree with your opinion. I also agree with you on the distinction between the two. Most of what's out there is amateur stuff, and some of hat has promise, but, against a sea of of it also inhabiting traditionally professional outlets, not so much agreement.
I don't agree with you on statistics and numbers.

[fossiltooth]

A few generations ago, any family that could afford to buy a piano generally would. If they were into it, they'd buy sheet music and go to concerts and generally be excited about the fact that music is kind of awesome. Learning music fed appreciation of music, and vice-versa.

Right they bought sheet music written by greats, not their next door neighbors.

Yes. Your point?

Not every person who bought a piano because they could decided they were "star material" and then recorded and glutted the market or even sold sheet music of really badly done stuff, mediocre stuff, or, pretty good but not great stuff.

Okay! This is a completely separate idea. This has to do with the new ways that people are sharing and marketing their music - Not the new ways they're creating it.

If you could travel back in time, you'd also find that every other person wanted to show you their mimeographs and manuscripts, or invite you to come over and listen to their daughter play piano. A lot of them sucked. Some were surprisingly good. (Some of us have next-door neighbors who actually are great!)

The only thing that's changed is that now everyone has a bigger megaphone. It sounds like you're mad at social networking and new forms of distribution. That's a different.

Why should you worry about this? Because now anyone can and will destroy an established market

Awesome! That's how new markets are created, which is how economic growth occurs.

Also: It's extremely punk rock.

Pianos and sheet music made by greats don't destroy markets, they create them

Agreed! That was my point. Which makes me wonder what we're arguing about!

Maybe "great" artists could start selling multitracks of their sounds and music that DAW users can remix, re-appropriate or play along to. That would be kind of the modern equivalent of learning Chopin, wouldn't it?

It would be a great new market. Engineers like Puig and Kramer and Lord Alge are already taking advantage of it. So are artists like Bjork. Why would we think tomorrow's Radiohead or Justin Timberlake or Debussy wouldn't do the same?

Rembrandt was wildly successful in his day. But he also spent half his time and made much of his living teaching others how to paint. I haven't heard many arguments that suggest he "hurt" art.

...they don't glut airwaves or markets.

A) The airwaves aren't glutted. They never have been. The problem with TV and radio has always been too little variety, not too much.

B) The market is glutted, yes. But it always has been. Aspiring artists have always tried desperately to get paid for their creations. This was true in the days of Melville and Mozart and it's true now. Get used to it!

FWIW: Moby Dick was a DIY self-publishing project that was ignored by the mainstream outlets. So were Van Gogh's paintings.

The fact that they were ignored in their day because they had no way of breaking into the "system" is much more of a crime than the fact that the next Backstreet Boys have a little more "competition" from home recordists. Big deal.

If you ask me, I say Hooray.

If you really look at the situation, it's easy to recognize that Chopin and Beethoven didn't have access to significantly more or better technology than a decently-equipped amateur. Today is no different. To tell you the truth, I don't really see the problem!

WRONG. Chopin and Beethoven were not just some decently equipped amateurs! I haven't heard one amateur that even compares to either of those two.

The sentence you responded to says "...Chopin and Beethoven didn't have access to significantly more or better technology than a decently-equipped amateur". Based on your response, I'm going to assume you didn't, um, actually read it.

Also: I get this is something you're passionate about. But dude. Chill out. For real.

In closing: You've made it clear that you want more an better filters. That's totally separate from whether DAWs and Bandcamp are good or bad for musicians.

If you want more and better filters in your own life, find them or create them!

If you don't like to read people mouthing off on messageboards, read Tape Op instead. If you don't like being inundated with all the concert invites on Facebook or all the new releases on Pitchfork, then ignore them. Read the New York Times or listen to NPR. You could also read TMimaS or Spin or Fader or Rolling Stone or any number of established music magazines instead.

If you've had trouble adjusting to the new digital landscape, don't worry! You're not alone. If you want a great filter to help you weed through all the noise, please realize that they exist in droves, and pick one you like! In fact, there's really a glut of those. Some suck and some are good. Just like music. Just like everything else in life.

Okay, that's all I got. I'll leave you with the last word. Based on your posts so far, I have a feeling you just might take it

[Brian]

A few generations ago, any family that could afford to buy a piano generally would. If they were into it, they'd buy sheet music and go to concerts and generally be excited about the fact that music is kind of awesome. Learning music fed appreciation of music, and vice-versa.

Right they bought sheet music written by greats, not their next door neighbors.

Yes. Your point?

They didn't devise a marketing plan and execute prematurely, because they knew they weren't that good, when they weren't, with exceptions, and they usualy eventually hit a WALL hard.

Not every person who bought a piano because they could decided they were "star material" and then recorded and glutted the market or even sold sheet music of really badly done stuff, mediocre stuff, or, pretty good but not great stuff.

Okay! This is a completely separate idea. This has to do with the new ways that people are sharing and marketing their music - Not the new ways they're creating it.

If you could travel back in time, you'd also find that every other person wanted to show you their mimeographs and manuscripts, or invite you to come over and listen to their daughter play piano. A lot of them sucked. Some were surprisingly good. (Some of us have next-door neighbors who actually are great!)

The only thing that's changed is that now everyone has a bigger megaphone. It sounds like you're mad at social networking and new forms of distribution. That's a different.

I'm not mad. It has nothing to do with social networking or new distribution, it has to do with "no quality filter on the market", which sucks when you have a glut as big as we do for as long as we have had it. It has definitely displaced extremely talented people and supplanted hem with a plethora of absolute crap generated by liars who have a public "anti label" policy, who talk about punk rock attitudes, what they don't know about markets in the real world, and and all that, but, it's just BS and PR for narcissists and "hipsters" (wannabe's from the past).

Why should you worry about this? Because now anyone can and will destroy an established market

Awesome! That's how new markets are created, which is how economic growth occurs.

Also: It's extremely punk rock.

No it's not. It's just stupid and self centered. It doesn't create any new market, that's utter bullshit. Losing $80 billion industrywide per year is not market growth.

Pianos and sheet music made by greats don't destroy markets, they create them

Agreed! That was my point. Which makes me wonder what we're arguing about!

Maybe "great" artists could start selling multitracks of their sounds and music that DAW users can remix, re-appropriate or play along to. That would be kind of the modern equivalent of learning Chopin, wouldn't it?

It would be a great new market. Engineers like Puig and Kramer and Lord Alge are already taking advantage of it. So are artists like Bjork. Why would we think tomorrow's Radiohead or Justin Timberlake or Debussy wouldn't do the same?

Rembrandt was wildly successful in his day. But he also spent half his time and made much of his living teaching others how to paint. I haven't heard many arguments that suggest he "hurt" art.

That's not what I'm talking about, that market is a "school" not a career making music, it's a precursor.

...they don't glut airwaves or markets.

A) The airwaves aren't glutted. They never have been. The problem with TV and radio has always been too little variety, not too much.

Yeah, the airwaves are stale, stagnant, but, the internet isn't, but, there's too much of it.

B) The market is glutted, yes. But it always has been. Aspiring artists have always tried desperately to get paid for their creations. This was true in the days of Melville and Mozart and it's true now. Get used to it!

Are you saying they were mediocre?

FWIW: Moby Dick was a DIY self-publishing project that was ignored by the mainstream outlets. So were Van Gogh's paintings.

Are you saying it's mediocre?

The fact that they were ignored in their day because they had no way of breaking into the "system" is much more of a crime than the fact that the next Backstreet Boys have a little more "competition" from home recordists. Big deal.

So why advocate for continuing the mechanism of that "crime"?

If you ask me, I say Hooray.

If you really look at the situation, it's easy to recognize that Chopin and Beethoven didn't have access to significantly more or better technology than a decently-equipped amateur. Today is no different. To tell you the truth, I don't really see the problem!

WRONG. Chopin and Beethoven were not just some decently equipped amateurs! I haven't heard one amateur that even compares to either of those two.

The sentence you responded to says "...Chopin and Beethoven didn't have access to significantly more or better technology than a decently-equipped amateur". Based on your response, I'm going to assume you didn't, um, actually read it.

Also: I get this is something you're passionate about. But dude. Chill out. For real.

Don't read emotions into it. I'm BORED and had nuttin to do but look at a finalcut progress bar. Chopin and beethoven were commissioned writers, professionals who fed themselves with money they made writing music when they weren't busy being "unrecognized. Stop the revisionist history.

In closing: You've made it clear that you want more an better filters. That's totally separate from whether DAWs and Bandcamp are good or bad for musicians.

Not realy, it speaks to why I think they can be bad.

If you want more and better filters in your own life, find them or create them!

If you don't like to read people mouthing off on messageboards, read Tape Op instead. If you don't like being inundated with all the concert invites on Facebook or all the new releases on Pitchfork, then ignore them. Read the New York Times or listen to NPR. You could also read TMimaS or Spin or Fader or Rolling Stone or any number of established music magazines instead.

Get a grip on your self and stop acting like some pious twit. You aren't the pope of the music biz and neither am I.

If you've had trouble adjusting to the new digital landscape, don't worry! You're not alone. If you want a great filter to help you weed through all the noise, please realize that they exist in droves, and pick one you like! In fact, there's really a glut of those. Some suck and some are good. Just like music. Just like everything else in life.

Right, but, I never had to look at the shitty stuff before because they couldn't shove it into "noticeable".

Okay, that's all I got. I'll leave you with the last word. Based on your posts so far, I have a feeling you just might take it

You're pretty self righteous, but, I understand you think other people's thoughts for them. I was bored, a question was asked and I gave my POV. I have been in his business professionally for 36 years. I've been lucky enough to have worked with some of the greatest talents in many musical genre's and unlucky enough to be on the inside enough to know exactly what happened when it happened and heard first hand conversation on How and Why before it happened. It's already happened so what good would it do to actually be upset now? About as much as positing that you know how i feel about stuff when I never once stated "I feel". Guess why?

You can mouth off on message boards all you want but it seems that it's YOU who has the problem with that when the mouth isn't yours.

Try not building an angry straw man to argue with, your post is a straw man argument.

[trollofjustice]

You can mouth off on message boards all you want but it seems that it's YOU who has the problem with that when the mouth isn't yours.

Oh hello Pot. Have you met kettle?

Please don't read "flaming me" into this post.

That's utter BS, there is no evidence of that AT ALL. College educated Narcissists are doing great but their lyrics are shallow and often plagiarized!

Don't read "flaming me" into this please.

It was my full time JOB, it an't some half assed recreational activity for me.

Who appointed you god of what everyone else should do because of your opinion about this business?

Not flaming, but, ...

WRONG. You don't see the problem only because you don't want to.

I'm not mad.

No it's not. It's just stupid and self centered.

Don't read emotions into it.

Get a grip on your self and stop acting like some pious twit.

You're pretty self righteous

Emotional problems much?

[fossiltooth]

Hey, I get that this is a pretty loaded subject. But maybe we can try to stick to the issues at hand and steer clear of the ad hominem attacks? They tend to make everybody look bad.

(Apologies if this request is somehow "pious" or "twit"-like! )

Brian - Sorry for teasing you about the whole "last word" thing. I was just trying to have a sense of humor about it. I understand that it's hard to convey tone on a messageboard. Maybe cool off a little and write me an email directly? I'm happy to hear your arguments. I just might not agree with them all. Hope that's okay.

(^Tone of voice: Friendly and Surprised^)

[MoreSpaceEcho]

eek.

i'd write a long reply but as it would apparently be picked apart and responded to in a line by line quote fest that's impossible to actually read, i will just say this:

i have an awful lot of people sending me really good records for mastering. i have for years. i don't ask my clients what their motives were for making these records, but i assume they made them because music means something to them, not because they had some nefarious plan for destroying an industry.

call me crazy.

brian, your argument seems to boil down to "everything sucks now". sorry, not buying it. you can boil my argument down to "the kids are alright".

[Brian]

You can mouth off on message boards all you want but it seems that it's YOU who has the problem with that when the mouth isn't yours.

Oh hello Pot. Have you met kettle?

Please don't read "flaming me" into this post.

That's utter BS, there is no evidence of that AT ALL. College educated Narcissists are doing great but their lyrics are shallow and often plagiarized!

Don't read "flaming me" into this please.

It was my full time JOB, it an't some half assed recreational activity for me.

Who appointed you god of what everyone else should do because of your opinion about this business?

Not flaming, but, ...

WRONG. You don't see the problem only because you don't want to.

I'm not mad.

No it's not. It's just stupid and self centered.

Don't read emotions into it.

Get a grip on your self and stop acting like some pious twit.

You're pretty self righteous

Emotional problems much?

Oh, the irony.

[Brian]

eek.

i'd write a long reply but as it would apparently be picked apart and responded to in a line by line quote fest that's impossible to actually read, i will just say this:

i have an awful lot of people sending me really good records for mastering. i have for years. i don't ask my clients what their motives were for making these records, but i assume they made them because music means something to them, not because they had some nefarious plan for destroying an industry.

call me crazy.

brian, your argument seems to boil down to "everything sucks now". sorry, not buying it. you can boil my argument down to "the kids are alright".

No, that's not even close to my point or "How I Feel about it."
Of course you're getting plenty of good stuff for mastering, there's more stuff, and I like that there's more good stuff, and people who care about their music DO bother to get it mastered. That's also a good thing. I like that.
I still get stellar clients and kids that will one day be stellar into my studio. That's not the problem.

[Brian]

Hey, I get that this is a pretty loaded subject. But maybe we can try to stick to the issues at hand and steer clear of the ad hominem attacks? They tend to make everybody look bad.

(Apologies if this request is somehow "pious" or "twit"-like! )

Brian - Sorry for teasing you about the whole "last word" thing. I was just trying to have a sense of humor about it. I understand that it's hard to convey tone on a messageboard. Maybe cool off a little and write me an email directly? I'm happy to hear your arguments. I just might not agree with them all. Hope that's okay.

(^Tone of voice: Friendly and Surprised^)

Ok, you get my point about reading tone of voice into my posts, it does no good to read any unstated meaning into posts, regardless of the content, thanks.
Now we can hear each other properly.
Hey, I can be just as pious and twit-like, I just hope you "read that OUT" of my posts instead of in.
I get your points, I'm just trying to put them in context of the professional market I've experienced. That's all. I have no issue with the amateur market, when I was 12, I was editing tapes, cassettes with a razor blade to make mixes of artists material in the seventies. Different tech but, it didn't slow me down. That got me into an internship and learning an instrument quickly, which got me into mixing, which got me out of my hometown and into a real studio and internship, and assisting and hen freelancing and house gigs and owning my own large small place that does a shit-load. So I man, if it has direction, even if it's just happenstance, I have no argument or issue with it. It's when it's just "there" like a wart that I don't get it. Maybe somebody else does, but I don't immediately. Till they walk through my doors and I show them something they've never seen before about what they're on to. Then we both grow, so don't get the wrong idea.

[cgarges]

Points made. Is it time to move on yet?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC