Bruce

[the brill bedroom]

Well, I think it's an interesting observation, but not necessarily completely accurate. Springsteen has huge roots in British Invasion and 60's pop in general. He's often cited a Who concert he saw at 15 as the moemnt when he decided to do what he does. He's a veteran of the late 60's frat rock wars.

Also, if you're trying to figure out where Springsteen got his idea of how to use sax in a rock band, take a listen to what Van morrison was doing right before the first two Springsteen albums. You're defintely right on the glockenspiel stuff- that's his pure pop Phil Spector, girl Group influence.


You're right, though. The influences that he chose to push to tehe fore in the early 70's were very different from those being celebrated by others.

[philbo]

"Born to Run" album: Totally overengineered.

Yep... and man did that hurt sales or what?

With very little due respect... the "production team" had a vision for that music at the time when it was recorded, mixed and mastered that may or may not meet your sense of aesthetic 30+ years later... but doesn't that go a little past "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" into an entirely new realm.

Just because it was recorded "analog" doesn't mean it has to suit your sense of aesthetic. Maybe, just maybe, the guitar sounds were what "the team" was trying to achieve. Maybe they were leaning toward accentuating the piano part(s) because they liked how it affected the song.

None of us will ever know.

What we do know is that we either like the music or we do not like the music. If the presentation interferes with the music for you well that's a damn shame... but you really ought not second guess the intentions of someone else's work. I know I have no idea what was going through their head when they made that record... how could anyone else who wasn't physically part of the process.

I suppose I could guess what was going through their head at the time as I remember that just shortly before that record came out there was a bevvy of absolutely amazing "bubblegum" cocaine all over the NY Metropolitan area... and chances are pretty good that some of it made it's way to those sessions... but again, I don't know... I wasn't there.

Peace.

Damn, Fletch, you nailed that one!
________
BRUNETTE STRIPPING

[hammertime]

I finally saw that stupid Seeger sessions thing on t.v. the other night. I felt like I was watching an episode of the "Waltons" or something, where these guys dressed up in these little period costumes and sang about a bunch of b.s. they got out of some Alan Lomax book. I never liked Springsteen -- not when he acted the working-class role, and sang all these bullshit 2 chord songs about Vietnam and working real jobs, and especially not when he plays "folk" music. He always seems like he's acting, whether he sings with his little affected Dylanesque voice, or when he pontificates about folk music. I think the guy's such an ego-maniac, that if you actually called him on his bullshit, unlike some other ego-maniacs like Sting (who actually has a sense of humor), he'd get really offended. This "folk" music was just background music for his ego-trip.

[nymanji]

maybe someone already mentioned this but Max Weinberg is NOT the drummer on Born to Run... I'm not sure he's on that record at all.

And Max is a VERY dedicated dude who happens to get some pretty strong polarity from listeners... a love/hate thing, especially if you are watching him play.

He wrote a book with Dino Danelli in it... I LOVE Max!!

[lyman]

maybe someone already mentioned this but Max Weinberg is NOT the drummer on Born to Run... I'm not sure he's on that record at all.

yes, it's been mentioned that ernest "boom" carter plays on the title track, but i think max plays on most of the other songs.

[the brill bedroom]

Man, i always look forward to Hammertime's posts. Sacred cow for breakfast, lunch and dinner, eh? I love that diet. I've never agreed with anything the guy writes, but i always look forward to his posts.

[saultime]

I finally saw that stupid Seeger sessions thing on t.v. the other night. I felt like I was watching an episode of the "Waltons" or something, where these guys dressed up in these little period costumes and sang about a bunch of b.s. they got out of some Alan Lomax book. I never liked Springsteen -- not when he acted the working-class role, and sang all these bullshit 2 chord songs about Vietnam and working real jobs, and especially not when he plays "folk" music. He always seems like he's acting, whether he sings with his little affected Dylanesque voice, or when he pontificates about folk music. I think the guy's such an ego-maniac, that if you actually called him on his bullshit, unlike some other ego-maniacs like Sting (who actually has a sense of humor), he'd get really offended. This "folk" music was just background music for his ego-trip.

Really? 'Cause Springsteen speaks so highly of your work...

Seriously though, I don't know where you picked this up from. Could it be that you just don't like his politics?

[hammertime]

I don't anything about his politics, and I don't know too much about you either. It's wierd -- I don't know where alot of you clowns come from. Most of the people I grew up with had much hipper taste than to listen to this hoky poky light-weight shit.

I finally saw that stupid Seeger sessions thing on t.v. the other night. I felt like I was watching an episode of the "Waltons" or something, where these guys dressed up in these little period costumes and sang about a bunch of b.s. they got out of some Alan Lomax book. I never liked Springsteen -- not when he acted the working-class role, and sang all these bullshit 2 chord songs about Vietnam and working real jobs, and especially not when he plays "folk" music. He always seems like he's acting, whether he sings with his little affected Dylanesque voice, or when he pontificates about folk music. I think the guy's such an ego-maniac, that if you actually called him on his bullshit, unlike some other ego-maniacs like Sting (who actually has a sense of humor), he'd get really offended. This "folk" music was just background music for his ego-trip.

Really? 'Cause Springsteen speaks so highly of your work...

Seriously though, I don't know where you picked this up from. Could it be that you just don't like his politics?

[hammertime]

As much as I hated the music, I did think the Seeger sessions were pretty interesting from a sound engineering perspective -- they got a pretty killer sound out of what looked to me like a living room.

[saultime]

I don't anything about his politics, and I don't know too much about you either. It's wierd -- I don't know where alot of you clowns come from. Most of the people I grew up with had much hipper taste than to listen to this hoky poky light-weight shit.

Well, at least I know you're funny, and that goes a long way.

[creature.of.habit]

Man, i always look forward to Hammertime's posts. Sacred cow for breakfast, lunch and dinner, eh? I love that diet. I've never agreed with anything the guy writes, but i always look forward to his posts.

hey Hicks is my hero too but you don't hear me talk like that



ps. have to agree with one thing though, this seeger thing has one cool song, where i think the whole "curral band thing" works - jesse james. the rest of the record doesnt do it for me either.

my opinion about his work is that there's some briliant stuff (nebraska, ghost of tom joad, some tracks on river and not much else) but he manages to ruin most of it one way or another. ghost of tom joad has 4 or 5 great songs, but the guitars are always so low, like he's ashamed of his playing that the record is almost unlistenable. it's ridiculous, it ruins it for me, ridiculous recording, really. what does it for me are the outtakes (counting on a miracle, and growing up for instace are fun to hear), cause i really think the "propper" albums are very gliterish production wise, tons of reverb, delay, a shitload of instruments, it's uncalled for..but anyway, it's his business. that's why i'll always consider nebraska his true masterpiece, and tom joad a close second if the godamn record wasnt murdured in the control room. as for the rest i dont even bother.

from a rock n' roll point of view, i think his passion/deliver on stage really has something to do with the following he gathered along the years.

from a folk point of view i dont even understand what the hell is being discussed here most of the time..i'm a songwriter myself, mainly acoustic stuff, and i don't consider what i do to be folk in any way. folk means folklore. if you want folk you go to the fellas were in america from the begining of time (in my opinion), indians or whatever you want to call the native folks. that's folk music, a guy with an acoustic guitar will always be pop music, no matter how hard it is for ppl to accept that, me included.

springsteen was never folk, dylan was never folk, hell not even woody guthrie was...

[lyman]

springsteen was never folk...

what a rediculous thing to say. i'd argue that everything he's ever done is "folk" music. his songs are vignettes into the lives of everyday people. and that kind of story-telling is the backbone of folk music. his subject matter is nearly always aiming to paint a portrait of american life. if you can't get past the production of an album or how it's mixed to understand what somebody is saying, well, that's kinda funny to me.

[creature.of.habit]

i cant get past how bad tom joad was recorded in the sense that it could be so much nicer to the ear and portray his playing a lot better. it's not the means, nebraska sounds a lot better and the intruments are present. tom joad is basically vocals.

what i mean with folk, is that folk music means folklore, meaning music done by natives (first people that lived in a given place), the first kind of music in a determined place, that's what it means in most of europe. a guy with an acoustic guitar is as folk as aphex twin or whatever...unless no one ever lived in new york (or wherever) before and a guy with a guitar got there and started playing something. that's my point. you're taking it the wrong way.

[lyman]

i cant get past how bad tom joad was recorded in the sense that it could be so much nicer to the ear and portray his playing a lot better. it's not the means, nebraska sounds a lot better and the intruments are present. tom joad is basically vocals.

what i mean with folk, is that folk music means folklore, meaning music done by natives (first people that lived in a given place), the first kind of music in a determined place, that's what it means in most of europe. a guy with an acoustic guitar is as folk as aphex twin or whatever...unless no one ever lived in new york (or wherever) before and a guy with a guitar got there and started playing something. that's my point. you're taking it the wrong way.

ok, this is getting off topic.

indigenous and folk are not synonyms. the "first people that lived in a given place" are the only ones allowed to have made "folk" music?? by that definition, celtic music is not folk music (they were hardly the first inhabitants of their realm) not is anything else really.

every culture has and will have it's folk music. to say that it's only something that is created by the original inhabitants is off the mark. Years from now people will be passing along the music and words (and reinterpreting them too) of contemporary artists. their music is part of the shared culture, and thus, it is folk music. regardless of what and who was there before you, if you're contributing to the cultural landscape (and i'm not talking about disposable pop music/culture/whatever) you're essentially a purveyor of "folk."

i'm not even a big fan of his, but hundreds of years from now, somebody could gain plenty of insight into late 20th century culture from lyrics by springsteen. they touch on jobs, family life, entertainment, cars (a big one there), urban/rural experiences, etc. that's why i would consider it folk music.

[eeldip]

what makes springsteen pop instead of folk is that from very early on, his music was in part created by/informed by/promoted by the 70's corporate rock machine.