Editing drum takes 101

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i'd love to hear some before and after examples of your 'pocketing'. probably not possible though...

[chris harris]

do you think this is crazy?

it's only crazy if you (as many do) consider part of your job to be as some kind of guardian of musicianship.

but, the reality is, you're main responsibility is to give the person paying you what they want. If they want their beats locked to a grid, that's what you give them.

[jca83]

i'm trying to find a way to show you before and after in an mp3... i'll see what i can do.

and i don't think the drum beats here are "locked to a grid". i don't use a grid, i don't use grid mode, i don't use beat detective.

it's just looking, listening, feeling how the drums should be and, yes, giving them what they want.

i'm no guarding of musicianship. this is definitely a specific style and, most of the time, a specific genre or two. i love sloppy, dirty lo-fi music, and i work on this kind of stuff. i like this stuff, too, but yeah. it's definitely the kind of music, the kind of work, etc...

[JohnDavisNYC]

i think it's totally crazy, however... i noticed that the top track in your session is called 'loopage'... so... in a style of music that is loop based, yes, i can understand that you would want to do that sort of editing. me, personally, i tend to edit the loop subtly to the drummer, but that's jsut me. i've done edits like yours above, and it SUCKS to do... total pain in the arse. i guess it depends on whether the drummer is supposed to bring some personality to the table (i.e. jim keltner) or just play time. if it's just time and you don't want it to sound like that person anymore, you want it to sound like their drum sound and touch with your 'playing' via editing, then it's totally cool. it definately is a nice peek into the world of micro-editing everything... oh well... at least you're not just snapping everything to the grid.

when i did alot of electronic music, i would do edits like that, but it was generally to programmed drums that were tracked in, so the edits were more for creative variations, or editing me playing a crappy breakbeat with one mic along side and 'playing' fills and stuff by chopping stuff together. it wasn't to sound 'real'.

but i did do an EP for a band once with a shitty drummer, but the music needed to sound really tight and cheesy and sesh... so.... out came the editing.

so anyway, i feel your pain.

john

[wayout]

Quantize me please.

[jca83]

most of what i do, all of what i do is pop/country.

pretty much every commercial recording in that genre is edited into submission; the drums are pocketed like this, the bass track is chopped up and seated to follow the drums, the acoustics and electrics are pocketed and you fix any mistakes, any lead instruments you pocket that but try to keep it loose, and then the vocals.... you go to town on the vocals.

to give you an idea of what i'm talking about, check out the new brad paisley album. in my opinion, it's good country, and it doesn't feel pocketed to me, but i know it was... know it was HARDCORE.

it just feels more real, because of who's sitting there pocketing.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i like this term 'pocketing'.

jca, when you say you go to town on the vocals, what do you mean? you have to move those around in time alot? i've had to go to town on vox as far as removing lip noises, manually de-essing, drawing in rides, etc, but never really had to move things around to get them to sit right.

[joeysimms]

.. it just feels more real, because of who's sitting there pocketing.

Too bad we can't hear it as the original pocketers laid it down!

[Stephen B.]

to give you an idea of what i'm talking about, check out the new brad paisley album. in my opinion, it's good country, and it doesn't feel pocketed to me, but i know it was... know it was HARDCORE.

I listened to some samples from this. Man, that guy can play some guitar. Or did they just make it sound like he can?...

[jca83]

he can play alright. his band is phenomenal.

but, everything is still tuned and pocketed to tighten it up, but it still has some of that grit and fluidity that it did before.


the reason you don't get to hear it as the original players did, as i've said before, is that this music satisfies a particular genre, one where vocals are heavily prominent and everything else is almost a backing track.


when i talk about vocal editing, i'm talking pocketing as well (although normally just little moves to make sure it's timed right), tuning, etc.

the background vocals are a bit more aggressively edited, because they have to be added right on top of the lead vocal.. so there's a lot of cutting and stretching the bgv's to fit right with the main vocal.. that's mostly what i'm talking about.

[Mr PC]

"it just feels more real, because of who's sitting there pocketing."

I think we need another Grammy category now.

"And the grammy for pocketer-compu-nerd goes to...."



PC

[leigh]

and i don't think the drum beats here are "locked to a grid". i don't use a grid, i don't use grid mode, i don't use beat detective.

Yep, understood. It's a different and more subtle thing.

So, one more question: do you use any special tool to slice the waveform into regions in PT? Some kind of transient detector with a threshold control? (Can't Beat Detective just be used for that?) OR are you manually making all the slices? PT also has that "tab to transient" feature...?

Leigh

[digital eagle audio]

That's a good point. I never monitor the click in the control room. If I hear tempo issues without a reference it's too far off. If I only hear it with the click it's not bad enough to be a problem. I also like to not use the screen when I use the RADAR. I make my ears and brain tell me I need to fix something, not my eyes.

that jog feature is the coolest thing.

[jca83]

and i don't think the drum beats here are "locked to a grid". i don't use a grid, i don't use grid mode, i don't use beat detective.

Yep, understood. It's a different and more subtle thing.

So, one more question: do you use any special tool to slice the waveform into regions in PT? Some kind of transient detector with a threshold control? (Can't Beat Detective just be used for that?) OR are you manually making all the slices? PT also has that "tab to transient" feature...?

Leigh

thanks for not knocking what i do. it is subtle.. anyway.


protools has a tab to transient, then i just command-e to separate region and drag or nudge by 1ms.

when i need to time stretch something i use Serato pitch 'n' time.

[joeysimms]

I hope you didn't think i was knocking your work Jon - not at all. it's baffling to me that the market expects it, that's all. I would LOVE to hear some before/after sometime though, if possible.