Never should have told my client about Auto-Tune

[Brian]

I sure wouldn't want to develop a reputation as an engineer that let folks get off that easy, I think folks like working with me because I push most of them them really hard to get the take out of them that might be in there. Or maybe they just like the bourbon and soft lighting.

Drummers ask me if I can "fix things" in the computer a lot, and I just try to make sure they have given their best performace before I result to time-consuming things like moving kicks and snares ect.

I am all about making the client happy, but I'm more of a life-coach than a fucking barber.
I'd rather they leave a better singer than a happy, auto-tuned quitter.
I'd rather sit there with an acoustic guitar and map out their vocal melody and practice it with them than use a plug-in.

I can hear the negative artifacts of auto tune, CAN'T YOU?

I can hear autotune when it is used poorly. I can hear bad mastering. i can hear shitty mixes. i can hear shitty songs. I can hear idiotic ideas that should never even be recorded. i can hear shitty equipment. i can hear badly tuned instruments. i can hear fucked up performances. i can hear beat detective. I can hear great performances. I can hear awesome loops. i can hear amazing songs. i can hear great equipment. i can hear creativity. i can hear insecurity. I can hear great productions. i can hear all these things leading to a shitty record. I can hear all these things adding up to an AMAZING recording.

I can hear decisions. I can hear lack of committment. I can hear the sound of people trying to hold on to outdated techniques as a front for lack of fundamental recording skills. I can hear a lot of BS on the internet about "ethical" choices made for an end result that is not even worth listening to under any circumstance, even in an "ethics" class.

I can hear the sound of things changing in the world and people being reticent to embrace technology available, and make creative choices based on the plethora of tools we now have at our disposal.....

CANT YOU?

good lord, Joel! Anger? It doesn't fit you.
We won't all come to same conclusion about autotune. When people who can't sing well at all become the majority of artists, there will be a significant reduction of recording funds.
Oh, that already happened.
Alright, think of it like this:
Do you like girls? (or guys)
Well, if you lower your standards a lot, there's a lot more of them to find desirable. If you make plastic surgery available on the cheap, more of them will have it, then the once-not-so-attractive will get dates with the rich-and discriminating.
The rich and discriminating will be willing to do less for it since there's more competition due to lower standards and artificial enhancement.
It's called a market condition, and the condition is called a downward spiral.
Now its a personal call whether you want to support tactics which will contribute to a downward spiral in the market or not.
My partner, a rich guy, said "there's never a reason to steal" to me one day. He's never missed a meal I guess because where I grew up, some people weren't allowed to eat because they were undesirable to be around. Society at large decided through complicity that it would starve them to death by not letting them work either. That particular sopciety is still particularly biased and calloused to those people would not support begging.
They had to steal to survive.
A lot of times people don't realize that there innocuos decisions have dramatic effects on others in the world. A sense of community is called for.
Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is tell them thatr they aren't ready to record and encourage them to practice.
Sometimes you have to take a stand and suffer the consequences if you have the balls.
I don't want to be the one who turned our holy duty into a place where any half practiced unseasoned and not really committed to anything but megalamania and fame could get over due to my efforts to support its vapid dream.

[Brian]

I just thought opf this:
There used to be a bar, like "limbo" that to record with any hope of making real records, you hed to have talent, considerable talent, way more than your average Joe.
That's over.
Now what's my job, might as well open a booth in the mall, "Be A Star, sing along with Bon Jovi!" or whatever. I used to like working with big stars, these regular guys with no talent suck, admit it Joel, SAY IT!!!

[JGriffin]

Autotune was used on the Cher track.

I sit corrected.

[joel hamilton]

I just thought opf this:
There used to be a bar, like "limbo" that to record with any hope of making real records, you hed to have talent, considerable talent, way more than your average Joe.
That's over.
Now what's my job, might as well open a booth in the mall, "Be A Star, sing along with Bon Jovi!" or whatever. I used to like working with big stars, these regular guys with no talent suck, admit it Joel, SAY IT!!!

You really hate me, dont you?

[Mark Alan Miller]

Autotune was used on the Cher track.

I sit corrected.

Hey, maybe my suspicions are unfounded, and your info is the truth. I was just stating my (loudmouth) opinion.

Oh, and "I sit corrected" is wonderful.

[Brian]

I just thought opf this:
There used to be a bar, like "limbo" that to record with any hope of making real records, you hed to have talent, considerable talent, way more than your average Joe.
That's over.
Now what's my job, might as well open a booth in the mall, "Be A Star, sing along with Bon Jovi!" or whatever. I used to like working with big stars, these regular guys with no talent suck, admit it Joel, SAY IT!!!

You really hate me, dont you?

No, but, I have lowered my standards about women and it's true! There are a LOT more of'em to love!

[Brian]

Im just saying, if a guy can't sing, call a vocal coach, do both of ya some good, the client learns to sing and keeps doing it and appreciates it, you make a valuable ally and probly a nice new friend. Claude Stein lives in the city on 14th street, he's great, Katie Agresta is in the 70's west side, legendary. Also, they know people. You probably know them.
If a band doesn't have the budget, they're probly not in your stellar room. The coach isn't that exspensive and they pay off in many many ways. There's only one payoff for a plugin.

[Mark Alan Miller]

Sure, in the longer terms of things better training and practice, practice, practice is always preferred. I'm not sure anyone is arguing against that...
I've recommended vocal training many times - not always the easiest topic to bring up (if at all!)

[Brian]

Right. I'm saying drop the naughty plugin and practice. Using the plug sucks the soul out of the engineer way more than the vapid soul-less beast that can't sing isn't willing to learn yet still wants to be famous for singing.

[herodotus]

I just thought opf this:
There used to be a bar, like "limbo" that to record with any hope of making real records, you hed to have talent, considerable talent, way more than your average Joe.

And before that there used to be a much, much, higher bar.

None of the musicianship enshrined in the 70's recordings beloved to so many would have impressed a top flight orchestral musician of say, 1900.

Or, for that matter, 1750.

J.S. Bach could improvise stuff that Donald Fagen couldn't play if you held a gun to his head.

All of Bachs children could improvise stuff that Donald Fagen couldn't play if you held a gun to his head.

Same for guitar. Many great guitarists from the 70's (Jimmy Page comes to mind especially), wouldn't have been considered good enough to study with the likes of Paganini.

Now I am not dissing Jimmy Page (perhaps my favorite musician of all time), but I sometimes think that a little perspective is in order when talking about great musicianship.

It is sad that the bar is getting even lower. Especially for someone like me, considering that I am one of those old school drummers that learned the old way and who takes pride in being able to lay down a whole track in one take, without a band or even a dummy track to play with.

But lets not kid ourselves. Rock isn't about instrumental virtuosity. It never has been. It's about songs written in a certain range of styles that are played with a certain kind of conviction. If the song is good, if the conviction is there, and the performance isn't riddled with screw ups, its good enough for rock. And if the recording captures that song and that conviction, its good enough for rock.

By all means try to aim higher than this basic standard.

Just remember that the condescending "these kids these days don't know how to play" could be levelled at all of your favorite artists, too, if you raise that bar high enough.

[allbaldo]

Just because someone isn't a virtuoso doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to document their music/ideas.

That would be akin to saying "you're ugly, so you shouldn't get your photo taken".

[joel hamilton]

Just because someone isn't a virtuoso doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to document their music/ideas.

That would be akin to saying "you're ugly, so you shouldn't get your photo taken".

Totally. AND:

A great photo of a person not considered attractive by popular standards can be very engaging.

Record well. Have fun. Record a lot. Do what you can to make it engaging, exciting, and fun to listen to. Find the strengths and reinforce them. Deemphasize the weaknesses... have fun... make great records.

[Brian]

Pushing the "black and white edge" thing isn't the point.
"Documenting" ideas isn't the point. You can document at home. Heck, it might help you learn your craft.
Walter's point was that if you don't really know what you're doing you can't be consistantly be depended upon for professional results and that you shouldn't be engaging largewr facilities with engineers who've taken time to really know what they're doing in a bidding war on the open market. Not "purist", not "old school" just professional and dependable. Educated to make the right accidents happen on time everytime.
I'm sure Joel can also attest that these half-talent "artists" aren't producing any new ideas number one.
Have you worked with D. Fagan? I wouldn't say that about him.
A lot of musicians in the seventies had more talent than they ever used on record "at one time" thats likje playing all your hands at once" or every lick you know in one song.
I don't know about Paganinni's singing, after all, Bheetoven was deaf, but, I bet Fagan could either carry a tune well or insist on someone talented to do it.
I've got to go make a photocopy of the Mona Lisa right now and auction it off on ebay for twelve million dolllars.
Gimme a brreak.

[Mark Alan Miller]

Just because I said that training and practice are for the best in the long term by no means should be taken that I will exclude anyone from singing if they want to, and if autotune can help them at that moment and at that skill level then it's a tool worth considering.

[Red Rockets Glare]

I guess you have to determine what you find objectionable about it. In my experience (recording performers), the people who constantly correct their performances, or wish to have them corrected are hacks. They are not fully committed to their art. Not that there is anything wrong with being a hack. Some of my favorite bands are full of hacks and have hack performances on their recordings. I'm a hack trombone, and slide whistlist, and it takes me forever to get it right. Most times I don?t get it right, because I don?t care that much. However, I feel lied to when I see a band who couldn?t pull off decent show, make a pitch-perfect time-aligned record. I think to myself, they have no business making a record like that being so bad. In this application, I find the computer hands to be hard to bear. They?re like steroids.

For a band or performer that is trying to make a serious representation of their art, there is rarely a time where heavy editing and auto tuning are truly justified. Dance, and video game music. . maybe. At the very least, the performer should be able to play to their expectations within a reasonable period of time, before entering the studio. I am of the opinion that an artist has to follow through with the idea, and not just come up with it, either by doing it him/herself or getting someone to do it for them (re Boston). The argument of lack time and money forcing one?s hand is an invalid one. I can understand that even with a lot of practice, you can still fuck up in the studio, but it should be allotted for, and fixes should be straightforward.

Who are we doing a favor for when we make a record of an artist that doesn't exist? What are they going to do with that? If the artist is lacking in talent, the corrected recording is just an exercise in vanity. It will be something they play to their friends and family for years to come, but not strong enough to compensate for an inability to repeat it in front of anyone. What will they learn from that experience? Will they learn to sing/play better?

I'll do whatever my client wants, but when I do that, I feel like I'm wasting their, and my time. It might be making them happy in the short term, but it wont be good for them in the end. If they suck, the record isn't going to hide that. It will be plainly evident when he/she opens their mouth at the next show. There are plenty of people that I?ve worked with that have made use of their experience and become better at what they do, and are more confident doing it.

To me, it's like my baseball friend photo-shopping himself, as the winning pitcher, into the victory photo at the World Series. You can impress people with how good it looks, yourself with how real it looks, but he?s still a bad pitcher.

well, that basically sums up everything Ive ever felt on this subject.

dav e

I disagree. Are you a paid professional or what? a grumpy old man with an attitude?

See personally i have no idea why someone who want to have one of those professional glamour photo sessions where there is so much makeup, filters, and weird lighting that theres no way the end result could ever be mistaken for the person that will hang it in their hallway. Same with airbrushed model shots... they all become the same and boring and distasteful.

BUT it's the photographers job to flatter the client and use every tool available if that's what the client wants. The person will payup & proudly hang the frame and have this record of "how beautiful they looked" and everyone goes home happy. Not my thing, but it's not right or wrong. There is no real concept that a photo should only be a serious representation of the subject, no concept of that at all. And no reason why as a professional recording engineer things should be any different.

I mean sure, if you think a band sucks but what they want is a no frills recording of their performance, then track it, mix it and everyone goes home happy. But if they ask for 'help' and are paying for it in terms of extra hours spent in the mix then you're unprofessional if you don't use any tools you have available and do the best job you can.

sometimes an artist has no concept of 'making it' and just like a glamour photo shoot they want to look/sound perfect just for he thrill and future memories. If you don't like it that's fine, don't do it. Only take sessions from people that meet your talent standard criteria and that only want a true representation of themselves.

But man if you're there behind the glass getting paid by the hour but hating the band or singer but taking their money and not doing anything & everything you can to improve things then that's really sad.

So you're a barber with microphones instead of a jar full of combs?