Bass Recording Hell

[brainfreezebob]

My collaborator and I have tried every motherfucking thing we can think of to get a decent, workable bass sound, but we never come up with anything that works. It's the usual story: The sound is always too boomy and (after a series of desperate EQ and compression tweaks) gets lost in the mix. Here's what we've got:

70's P-bass

various cool sounding, small tube guitar amps.
Fender Twin verb
crappy Fender bass amp

AT 4033
AT 4047
Shinnybox 46 ribbon
SM57
Tapeop Omni

We don't have a real DI, only the input on our Realy Nice Pre.

Various compressor plugs.

At this point, I'm not too picky about the specifics of the tone. I just want something that lives in it's own little space, something you don't have to crank to hear. In my fantasy world, I'd like something round and "guitary," a little of that buzzy high end.

The closest we've gotten so far is using the ribbon mic in front of our old Epiphone amp at a low volume, but it still doesn't quite work.

Please save us from bass recording hell!

Thanks.

[???????]

The 4033 is generally a very good choice for micing bass cabs. I'd put that up on whichever of your amps sounds the best to you in the room, and then take a line through the RNP as well. I've never used an RNP so I don't know how the line input (if any) is so that's a qualified statement. Make sure to check the phase between the two before you start EQing anything. Move your ear around in front of the amp and find the spot that sounds the best, and stick the mic there. The goal is to get the sound you want most of the way there with the mic instead of resorting to lots of EQ but i'm sure you know that already. I suspect you'll end up with a mostly DI signal and a little amp blended in to make it sound fat.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[jmoose]

Tough to say without hearing anything so I'll take some shots in the dark.

How old are the strings on the bass? A fresh set can do WONDERS for bass tone unless 'yer into the James Jammerson thing, if that's the case use flatwounds or leave the roundwounds on the instrument for years & years & years...

Aim for "the sound" out of the amp and try to capture that rather then resorting to compression & EQ.

If you're not getting the tone 'ya want from the amp your DOOMED. Screwed. Fucked. Go directly to jail...don't pass Go, don't collect 'yer $200 tacos.

Once your getting 'the tone' from the amp...stick a mic somewhere near it and have someone sweep it around while someone else plays. When you find the spot that gives it up, lock down the mic stand! Maybe add some compression...pulling back maybe 6 to 10dB on crazy peaks at 4:1 or 6:1.

I usually don't use that much EQ on bass, a rip around 140-200 maybe, maybe 400-500. Sometimes 800-1k5 can be a magic range & maybe I'll push the waaaaaay bottom around 40-70 cycles depending on where it gives the booty up.

Mics? What's around? I like small diaphram condensor on bass amps, the 4033 would work...421's...RE20's...even an SM58! I doubt I'd reach for a ribbon mic on bass, a figure 8 pattern has the most proximity effect of anything and they tend to be a little 'soft' to begin with, not to mention fragile and bass amps can move A LOTTA air & stretch or kill a ribbon.

The last few times I've tracked bass there's been two DI's. One is a a clean DI and the other is a Sansamp or some kinda fuzz for the 'amp' tone. But the other day I was using just a 'clean' DI on it's own so go figure! LOL

Bass is kinda tough...it's gotta work with the drums and melt into the guitars. Not always an easy thing to get 'right' but it's easy to bury in a mix if the tone sucks.

[vvv]

Four suggestions.

Break down and get a DI; even a cheap one will give you useable results, with or without an amp. They can be had for as little as US$25, but look for them cheaper used...

Note that many pre-amps can be used as DI's, as they are; both my meek and ART can be, and compressors, too (I use a dbx163X often.)

Try an effects pedal. A Rat, for instance, can be useable.

Finally, High Pass Filter the bass track. Anything below, say, 50Hz, try cutting.

[8th_note]

I've had great results using a Sansamp Bass Driver DI. Good range of tones. In most cases it sounded better than micing the bass rig.

[JWL]

I'd get a good DI sound before you try to supplement that with a recorded amp. In my experience, most DI bass recordings need some serious EQ, or more specifically 2 filters, a highpass and a lowpass.

I put a highpass on the low end, somewhere between 50-100Hz, with a Q of more than 2, to give a gentle boost before it levels it off.

Then I'll put a lowpass on, also with a similar Q, and back it off until the bass sounds like a bass, anywhere as far down as 1kHz, depending on how it sounds with the rest of the track.

I'll sometimes experiment with reamping this DI track, if I do I'll bypass teh EQ while reamping.

[brian beattie]

4033 is great, I love 57's on bass amps as well, especially if you want a "guitary" tone. Ribbons rule on bass amps as well, especially when it's a smalish amp. Sounds like you were almost there with the epiphone. Try all your smallish amps again, at smallish volumes, (if it sounds fatter...). Those little amps choke out the bottom end at a certain point if they're TOO distorted, but one of those babies might be just right for the bass, with the volume turned right below critical "crapping out" mass. Listen through the microphone and enlarged in your monitors. (Those little amps CAN get rather large....) Most folks do like to record a DI and a mic source, but I prefer to keep it simple for the sake of my tiny brain, and I try to get everything out of EITHER a mic OR a DI. ( I usually prefer a mic, especially if you are want subtle degrees of harmonic distortion in the sound.) I'd probably add a bit of compression at some point, definitely by the time it's mixed. But, you know, I've never thought of a p-bass having a buzzy high end. It's high end is a little lower, kinda midrange to hi mids, sorta nasal frequencies. I had a late 70's p-bass. It was a piece of crap. Once I changed the pickup and the bridge and the nut it sounded better, but it looked like shit....
of course, there are many incredible sounding 70's fender p basses out there.
Just no 79's I bet.
you're almost there. unless that bass just plain does not make that "round and guitary sound" you want. (like rickenbackers, J-basses, a buch of 80's ibanezes, that old blue tiesco del ray I own, and many others. Not a '79 P-bass, though...)
brian

[inverseroom]

I was DI'ing through the Hamptone JFET when I suddenly got the idea to double-track bass...that is, play it twice and hard pan. The result makes me pee my pants every time I hear it.

I am loving bass DI right now...

[drumsound]

Were are you placing the amp? When I have small amps, anything with two speakers or less, I like to put a piece of carpet down to absorb reflections from the floor. You could be getting nasty comb flitering if the amp is on a hard surface.

Try the RNP DI as well.

[darjama]

Don't forget to consider the player side of things. I have this sort of problem a lot, and more than half the time picking/fingering (it's especially true for finger style) closer to the bridge will help clear things up a lot.

If it's coming in really muddy, don't be afraid to put a hipass filter on it going in as well. And try multing the 4033 with a DI signal. I haven't tried the DI on the rnp, but I would think it would be fine.

[covert]

Two things:

Stick with your small amps, but run them through a real bass cab, 1x15" or so.

Or, try the currently available MXR Bass DI+. I've gotten some very decent sounds through one.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

if the amp is sitting on the floor, try putting it on a milkcrate or a chair or something. get it off the floor. if it still sounds too boomy, try backing the mic up to like a foot off the speaker.

the really cheap di's are a waste of money IMO. yeah they will work, but they sound like shit and you can get a radial, sansamp or mxr for less than 200 bucks...i say save your money and get one of those.

[curtiswyant]

Don't forget to consider the player side of things. I have this sort of problem a lot, and more than half the time picking/fingering (it's especially true for finger style) closer to the bridge will help clear things up a lot.

If it's coming in really muddy, don't be afraid to put a hipass filter on it going in as well. And try multing the 4033 with a DI signal. I haven't tried the DI on the rnp, but I would think it would be fine.

Absolutely agree. The best thing I've done for my bass sound is to practice, practice, practice. Don't rely on a compressor to smooth everything out. What style are you shooting for? I can usually get a good sound out of an old Champ (8" speaker!!!) or a Sansamp BDI. I use flats, too, the older the better. I bet if you had a pro-session bass player guy play through your setup, you wouldn't believe how incredible it can sound...

[mjau]

What about the rest of the recording? Could it be that you're getting a really cool bass sound, but it's being trampled on by other things (guitars, kick, synths, etc.)?
Is one of your ocmp plugins a multiband compressor? That might help tame the boominess and bring out some of the upper mids.

[brainfreezebob]

This is all good stuff. Thanks very much.

We've never tried filters before.

We normally record the amp on a hardwood floor, so we should give the carpet/ raiser a try.

We've tried the DI and amp routes separately, but I don't think we've mixed them together.

Doubled, hard-panned DI sounds like the kind of ridiculous thing that just might work.

The playing pretty good (hopefully). I try to keep things even sounding (though that super low shit doesn't come through headphones too well), and though I prefer playing with my fingers, we've been using a pick to try to increase clarity.

EDIT: The rest of the recording could be an issue as well. We tend to go for big, roomy drums.

I'm starting to wonder about the pick-ups... Someone, at some point, replaced the stock pick-ups with active EMG's. In the course of my bass freakout, I've read some pretty negative stuff about recording active bass. Is it worth replacing the pick-ups?

Thanks everybody!