How to bring out sparkle and crispness on Drum Set?

[T-rex]

Ok, I am a drummer and I seem to have the opposite problem that many people have. Everyone seems to use darker or ribbon mics for drum overheads to tame the harshness of cymbals. I have an issue where my overheads sound too dark, the cymbals seem to lack shimmer and crispness to them. I have tried many different mic combos and some different room treatments but it seems to just be different shades of the same beast.

I need some advice do you guys think its the:

ROOM: I record in a small 11 x 13 x 8 ft room, carpet on floor, minimal foam treatment on walls and ceiling. In the future I plan on making some fiberglass traps to hang from the ceilign to deaden reflections and pulling up the carpet and putting down wooden floor. Just not in the budget right now. (It's my house so I can't just rip up the carpet and not refinish the floor etc.)

MICS: I like mics with character I have some AT4047's and MC012's. I love the 4047's they just have a great overall sound but I can't get the sparkle I want. The 012's are nice, a bit less cool but a bit more open. I have a second modded 219 on the way from Michael Joly. The first one sounds amazing as a room mic, so much so I don't know if I will use the pair as overheads. My plan was to be done buying mics for a while but I have thought seriously about a pair of Stapes if it would help my drum sound issue or even some cheap condensors. I had a pair of cheap MXL condensors that didn't sound good on anything except overheads and now I find myself missing them. Maybe i am addicted to the cheap chinese condensor sound or the lack of transformers?

PRES: For overheads I am relegated to the pre's on my tascam or a pair of EH. I have an SCA N72 and will eventually be filling out the chassis with some A12's and C84's but am balancing between more pre's and mic's and saving up for a Ghost console. I thought about building a pair of C84's cause I can do a pair for OH's for $300.

EQ: Am I not cutting out the mud in the mid range and lower frequencies? I like the overheads picking up the whole kit and getting a good image of the drums, so hi-passing the crap out of them doesn't really work for me.

OTHER: Are you getting your sparkle from a different set up, mostly the room mic? Mostly compression?

Any advice you guys want to throw on the subject would be great. I don't feel it's the equipment, even in the small room the drums and cymbals sound good to me, the way I like to hear them. I just can't get them to translate.

Thanks!

[kdownes]

boost a narrow peak 10 db in the area of 500 Hz or so, sweep the freq knob until you hear the spot that sounds the most "muddy" or undesirable. now cut that freq. boost 10khz for some shimmer.

this normally does the trick for me. getting rid of the freq you dont want will sometimes make the freq you do want magically appear.

[seaneldon]

did the drums sound "crisp" and "bright" when they were in the room? that'd be a great starting point. takes all the guesswork out that you're going through now.

[dynomike]

Man, sounds like everything in your set up is steering you away from "crisp" and "bright".

The at4047 is not SO dark, but its not bright, and its far, far, away from "crisp". Mc012's I've just never liked on overheads, so when you have money, this would be a good place to look into. However, boosting the highs on the mc012s should work ok.

As far as your pres, obviously neve clones are great.. but not known for being bright/open either! The api clones would probably help here.

Room deadening is certainly a problem for "bright" and "crisp" as well... try to get at least a wood clipboard under the snare or something like that to brighten it up.. a wood floor really helps, and if your walls are as dead as you say they are, that probably doesn't help much either.

So, it sounds like you're really fighting an uphill battle! Why can't you just want your drums to sound like spoon and wilco?

Mike

[hammertime]

You could use something like sm-81's for overheads. Sometimes these mic's are too bright, but I love mine.

[T-rex]

Yeah, see I love the wilco and spoon thing, so of course I have never had a problem with that sound. Lately though I have been drumming for a few different projects that are more indie and pop rock oriented etc.

No the walls are drywall with just a small little bit of foam up, mainly on the ceiling to stop the early refelections from coming back into the OH's.

[8th_note]

You didn't mention OH mic placement. Have you experimented with various placements of your overheads? I have found that in my room, placing my overheads above the kit pointing down is usually the worst sound. I prefer a lower position, usually about drummer shoulder height on either side of the drummer. The cymbals have more shimmer and less bell sound. Depending on the kit and the style of music I'll sometimes put the overheads in front of the kit pointing in the general vacinity of the drummer; sometimes just a couple feet off the ground angled upward. Looks weird but you can get a very different balance of toms and cymbals with odd placements.

You made a quick reference to MXL's and if you want bright overheads you can't beat MXL 2001 LDC's. They are cheap and I love them for that application.

[drumsound]

I can see some bright mics and faster preamps helping you in your quest. You could also mult you overheads and do a severe hi-pass and mix that in with the more organic channels. Try to point the room mics at the wall for a more reflective bright sound.

[shakestheclown]

Could it be a phasing issue?

[xSALx]

I've been having the same problem until recently. I have a very similar room set up for tracking drums. I've gone through a few overheads, recently I tried a couple avenson omnis spaced and it did the job. I'm not saying to necessarily get avensons, but see if you can borrow a pair of omnis. Unfortunatley I'm not as farmiliar with the mc012s as everyone else here, but if they have omni caps it would help.

Here's some stuff that I've tried that hasn't worked for me in the crispness factor in my little room:

TO Ribbon
Baby Bottle
KM84 (although a little better)
SM57 (no need in explaining, although it has a great squished sound for me)

Omnis try get ahold of a pair.

[T-rex]

Thanks guys, tons of great advice.

I will definitely try the placement of not so much over the kit but to the side and in front. I mainly used spaced overheads, sometimes xy and sometime glyn johns.

I don't think it is a phase issue, I usually spend a lot of time getting the phase right, or at least sounding righ to my ears.

I also like the idea of pointing the room mic's at the wall, that might be cool.

The stapes were pretty much next on my list of mic's to buy but being as that my room is so small, I didn't know what kind of sound I would get. It seems the general thought is that you need a decent room to use omni's. But I have also heard people say with the lack of proximity effect you can get them in really close to the cymbals etc.

[dynomike]

Could it be a phasing issue?

pretty unlikely, phase issues tend to affect the 'body' and low frequency stuff much moreso than the high freq. sparkle + crisp (transients) that go pretty much unaffected by being partly out of phase... if anything, having the low freq's cut out by having something out of phase would enhancethe apparent "crispness".

[spankenstein]

I've got some different space in my area. Some are carpeted on the floor and some are painted concrete. I notice the most different by placing the drums in different areas for different sounds. I have one spot that's carpetted with a dropped ceiling but it buts up to a complete concrete space.

I almost always adda little high end when I do the MC012s. I've used MXL990s with good results. There is a honk in the upper mids that I cut and they usually sound pretty good after that.

[@?,*???&?]

Absolutely lose the carpet on the floor. Look for a parkay or a linoleum instead. Carpet is the biggest sucker of 1 Khz there is. Get some diffusors for your room too. Auralex makes many that are affordable.

[fzfile]

All of the above sounds like good advice ...... start with making the kit itself sounding crisp and work out from there. I would def try removing the carpeting also.

The only thing I might add ....and this may be painfully obvious .... but as much (or sometimes more so) as mic positioning is important .... so is the actuall position of the kit in the room. I know you dont have a ton of space there but try moving the kit around the room, change the angle or whatever, and you can get very different sounds from the OH's and/or room mics.


-mike