M/S Micing

[SaneMan]

I just got my first multi-pattern mic and am excited to start exploring the possiblities. I was wondering what you guys usually do when setting up an M/S scheme. I seem to remember back in school being taught that you duplicate the figure 8 track and flip the phase on one, and obviously pan them out. Once I get some time I'll be doing plenty of experimenting, but just trying to get it figured out in my head ahead of time to have a good starting point.

[Martin]

This is usually how I do it, duplicating the track and flipping the phase. I use a Studio Projects B3 for the side, and an akg 451 or 535 for the mid. It works well.

I'm starting to get back into spaced pairs again though. It doesn't give the same stereo imaging, but it can sound lovely.

[JWL]

Yeah, you've got the idea.

[Professor]

Here's the article by Wes Dooley & Ron Streicher which contains all you could want to know about M/S.
And it's really not as difficult read as it might seem.

-Jeremy

[SaneMan]

Thanks Jeremy, I was hoping you'd chime in

[LeedyGuy]

I've pretty much abandoned the spaced pair. I have never really gotten results that I wanted from it, especially as drum overheads. I haven't mastered X/Y either, so mid-side is my stereo drug of choice. I'm sick of hard panned cymbals anyway. With my Sytek I get great seperation between my mid-side mics and my kick and snare mics, so I don't need the hi hat to go charging up the left side and the ride to spread out to the right. Everything is sorta just there.

I like M/S especially in my small room, which could be most of the problem with my spaced pair and X/Y.

I duplicate the track and then flip the phase and pan hard. The trick though also is to get the same basic volume level on each of your M/S mics when mixing. It really takes the perfect balance between each mic to make that stereo image start to expand. I hate to say it, but I use my eyes on the meters to get this going in mixing. If you line up the snare hit volume wise, then that's what gets the most stereo, which isn't really needed. If you line up the ride and hats on the meters between t he three tracks, then you really are starting to create a stereo image.

Also, I find that recording the Fig. 8 to two simultaneous tracks doesn't really do the trick! It sounds totally different when I double it. What's that about?!

-Ken

[spacelabstudio]

Assuming y'all are on a computer, I like to make things simpler and use an M/S decoder plugin. I've been using "+matrix" from the
soundhack freeware bundle lately. I usually create a group track and assign my mid to the left channel and and my side to the right channel. Insert the matrix into the group channel and stereo comes out.

You could also just record the two mics to either channel of a stereo track, since the plugin allows you to adjust relative levels. Would be even simpler in terms of number of tracks in your mixer, but for some (no good) reason (I can think of) I prefer the slightly more complicated pattern above.

There was some other free MS matrix plugin I downloaded that appeared to have been coded incorrectly--it was not doing the right thing. Forgot which one, now, though. Soundhack works.

chris

[cgarges]

It's important to know that you need to flip the phase of the track panned opposite the front of the figure-eight mic to maintain accurate imaging from the microphone's point of view. If you set the figure-eight mic up with the positive (front) lobe of the capsule facing left, the phase reversed version of that mic needs to be on the right. Otherwise, your image will be reversed. For example, if you have an MS array in front of a standard right-handed drumkit and the front of the figure eight mic is pointing left (towards the floor tom-side of the kit) and you reverse the channel panned left, the floor tom will appear predominantly in the right speaker.

Hope that's not too confusing.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[MoreSpaceEcho]

The trick though also is to get the same basic volume level on each of your M/S mics when mixing.

?? are you saying you make the sides as loud as the mid? i've always had the sides way lower otherwise it sounds Crazy Insane Wide.

[cgarges]

The trick though also is to get the same basic volume level on each of your M/S mics when mixing.

?? are you saying you make the sides as loud as the mid? i've always had the sides way lower otherwise it sounds Crazy Insane Wide.

Geez. The thing I love about MS is the ability to adjust the stereo width later on. That's half the reason I use MS. If I need a strong center image with good mono compatibility, I'll mix the mid mic louder. If I need a little more spread across the width (with a little more room in the center for whatever else might reside there), I'll mix the mid mic quieter. To me, the only hard and fast rules are the ones regarding the mechanical working of the setup, like an awareness of how the the left-right imaging works.

I recorded a pair of electric guitar amps in MS yesterday. When I was getting sounds, I noticed that one amp was louder than the other. I could have messed with the pan knobs or made one side louder than the other, but it really wouldn't have solved the volume issue or stereo placement in the mix without messing with what's cool about MS encoding. I went out and moved the mics, so that I had a more balanced image. Tada! Done.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[JamesHE]

When I first started using M/S I wasn't able to monitor the decoded image. I got ok results but it really started clicking when I got an Mackie 800R which had the encoder for the first two channels. I haven't read many people emphasizing the imperativeness of monitoring in M/S. It is obvious that you should, but working on a DAW it's easy to get away not doing so. I just wanted to iterate that.

I'm building a DIY headphone amp that will have 2 stereo inputs, a main and aux. The aux will be switchable to L-R, M-S, and mono. should be really cool once I work out the kinks. (It's tough doing your first DIY project and your trying to design the damn thing yourself - lol) I about have it, just working out the most elegant way to do the switching.

temporarily I have this some what awkward series of mults involving two insert cables to mult the side and flip polarity on one, also going through my the MOTU cuemix in an equally awkward way that robs me of two inputs. (my monitor mixer dosen't have phase switches) I'd explain it more thoruoghly, but I know I'd mess it up and confuse everyone! But it works! and only takes up five pairs in the patchbay! lol.

[Professor]

Thanks Jeremy, I was hoping you'd chime in

Didn't think that was much of chiming in, but hopefully that helps to get things started on the technical side. If specific questions come up, I'll jump on those.

?? are you saying you make the sides as loud as the mid? i've always had the sides way lower otherwise it sounds Crazy Insane Wide.

The important thing to keep in mind is that you should track the mics at the same gain level but not the same volume level. That is, well, assuming the mics are identical, that is to say the gain knobs should be at the same place, both at +20dB, or both at 12 o'clock, or whatever the particular needs are. So you set the level based on the Mid mic to be sure it's not peaking, and set the Side to the same level even though it will seem quite low. Then in mixdown it's good to start from equal levels because that gives you the 50% - 50% balance that delivers the XY decode we expect. Then from there just push the Mid vs. Side levels to taste.

Personally, I haven't ever used a decoder at the preamp because I always want to track the raw mics signals to decode later. And I don't have any decode plugs, so I just decode across a couple of aux channels. Actually, I'm tracking some guitar overdubs right now while I'm typing and the room mic is an AKG C-422 dual stereo in a cardioid + fig-8 M/S pair. Both channels are getting +39.0dB of gain from the Grace preamps. To decode them, I'm sending the Mid to bus 13&14, and the Side is routed to bus 11. Two mono auxes channels are listening to bus 11 and passing the signal to bus 13 from one and bus 14 from the other, and that second channel is reversing the phase with the "Trim" plug in. Busses 13 & 14 are picked up at a stereo aux and going out to the console so I can hear them and put them into the cans for the player. It sounds pretty good. The extra tracks are a bit of a hassle to set up, but it allows me to monitor decoded while we're tracking multiple takes, overdubbing, etc. I found that was an easier solution than monitoring just the Mid and duplicating & inverting Side after editing, but the latter approach may work better on a native system where processing is at a premium.

-Jeremy

[JamesHE]

intresting. So you are recording the side mic on two tracks simultaneously? Or is one just not armed, but set up to monitor somehow? Using HD correct? I have too much latency in my system to monitor this way.

I am usually using two different mics for the MS (I don't have a pair of multipatterns) In that situation, is it better to match volume, or possibly leave the side a little shy of the Mid? I know I can adjust this later, but I see your point in trying to get it as "correct" as possible on the way in.

If equal gains on the pre-amp, (with matched mics) why is there less volume on the side mic? Is this related to the figure 8 pattern itself or is it because of how mics achive the figure 8 pattern? (hope that makes sense)

[cgarges]

So you are recording the side mic on two tracks simultaneously?

That's how I do it. I'll just print the whole thing to three tracks. That way I can always monitor it the same way during the overdub stages withoiut having to set up a matrix every time I work on that particular material. If I need one more track at some point, I may blow over the phase-reversed mult and set up a matrix at mix down, but if I print it initially, I've got it for as long as I need it.

I know I can adjust this later, but I see your point in trying to get it as "correct" as possible on the way in.

I like to get it somewhere that seems cool to me in relation to the other instruments. I've always got room to tweak, but again, if I know I can just put the faders at unity every time, I have a much more predictable set of tracks to deal with at mixdown. It also helps immensely if I need to work on a project in a different room.

If equal gains on the pre-amp, (with matched mics) why is there less volume on the side mic? Is this related to the figure 8 pattern itself or is it because of how mics achive the figure 8 pattern? (hope that makes sense)

Because the side mic is getting an indirect signal from the sound source.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[JamesHE]

Because the side mic is getting an indirect signal from the sound source.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

I think the smack I just put on my forhead measured about 80db.