Why do my cymbals come out so washy?

gutsofgold · Post by **gutsofgold** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:18 pm

So I pretty much thought this was basically a problem that I had worked out, but slowly this sound has been creeping up on me with a recent project I have been working on.

For awhile now I have been using a mono overhead (Oktava MK219 modded by Mr. Joly) into a Soundcraft M12 mixer. Ive set it up a few different ways and no matter what, I always get this washy sound out of the cymbals, especially in the ride.

Here's an untouched example, click on Drum Sample:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus ... dID=560990

What would you say is the biggest factor giving me this sound. Placement? the cheap preamps? shitty cymbals possibly? Or just the mic and the fact that there is only one of them to pick up all the cymbals.

???

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:25 pm

It's the cymbals!!!!!!!

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:31 pm

Yep,I think so too. My guess is some kind of cheap pre-pack...

nick_a · Post by **nick_a** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:01 am

yeah!

E-Rock · Post by **E-Rock** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:38 pm

sounds like a small room too.
Also, when you "ride" on a cymbal, it sounds washy by nature.
Open hi-hats sound washy too.
Tighten up that hat, hit your drums harder in relation to your cymbals, go for the bell of the ride instead of the edge.

eliya · Post by **eliya** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:42 pm

It's not necessarily bad cymbals, in my opinions. Sounds like a medium ride, which you have to hit harder to make it "open up", the opening leads to the "washed out" sound.

Im not that familiar with the oktava mk219, nor with Mr. Joly's mod. but maybe it's freq response has a rise in the highs, which is accentuating the cymbals.

Does the kit sound good in the room? does it sound good to the drummer? Cymbals are more "fronted" from the snare and toms, physically. they're more close to the mic(when it's in front of the set) than the other drums. Don't forget that they sustain more. I'd try to put the mic behind the drummer. first, at ear level, then at waist level-a small notch above the kick, I'd also try to place it in front of the set, above the kick.

If you're the drummer, try hitting the ride with the tip only. that way you get more "ding" sound than washed out/opened sound.

hope it helps,
eliya.

Professor · Post by **Professor** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:48 pm

What kind of sound were you hoping for or expecting?

Personally I hear too much midrange in there and not enough articulation. Part of it is probably the cymbals, but they're not terrible, except maybe that crash. A much bigger part is the style of playing. When the guy plays the crash cymbal on the edge like that for his 'ride' pattern, then it's going to ring and wash over the other sounds. If he's playing with nylon-tipped sticks (and I can't quite tell if he is or not - I think so) then when he does play with the tip on the ride cymbal, it will be weaker than a wood-tip sound.
The other factor is probably placement of the mic relative to the kit and the room. I can't quite get a sense of the room you're in, but I'm guessing the ceilings aren't very high, there ain't much treatment, and your mic is parked about 1/2-way between cymbal and ceiling. The easiest thing to do with an untreated or poorly treated 8-ft ceiling is to pull the mic right up to the surface of the ceiling. You then turn you mic into a boundary (PZM) style mic and take the whole ceiling surface out of the equation (mostly). If it's not the ceiling, maybe it's the wall behind the drummer, like if he has his back against a cement wall in a basement. Either way, moving to the surface and creating a boundary microphone will make the drums slightly more distant, but removing the extra reflections from that surface will make the room seem drier, and may return some ping to your cymbals. (Not a promise, but it's worth a try.)

When I have darker or washy cymbals and/or a drummer that's playing mostly with the side of the stick, I reach for a bright condenser like a Chinese LDC or my TLM-103s or something bright like that. That brightness helps find the articulation hidden under the wash for most of those situations.

-Jeremy

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:26 pm

It's the cymbals!!!!!!!

gutsofgold · Post by **gutsofgold** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:31 pm

You couldnt be more dead on with the room and placement. It's an attic, all wood walls, and peaked ceiling. It's fairly dead and I have the mic about two feet off the cymbals, directly above the center of the kick. The drummer is a kid so for his age he is a skilled drummer, just doesn't have his full technique down yet.

I think I will try puling the mic back all way up to the ceiling or just try putting it behind the drummer close to his ear. As far as the mic goes, the 219 is a fairly smooth mic and it is in no way hyped in the high end. It does have that slight mid-range bump though.

Thanks for the suggestions so far!

Dave Stanley · Post by **Dave Stanley** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:52 am

Those cymbals sound kind of cheap to me. But in the context of a rock song they might be ok. But my bet most of the problem is with the cymblas.
The crash has a bit of annoying ring to it. The ride is just ok.

On a side note,
You might want to suggest to the drummer to get rid of the pillow in the kick and crank up that snare. They both sound floppy. If that's a word? They sound kind of dead and boring. Just a suggestion to get a more exciting drum sound.

johnmarkpainter · Post by **johnmarkpainter** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:32 pm

Don't be in a rush to change the Miking.
Player, Instrument, Room

Let the drummer listen to what he is playing. Then adjust his playing and do it again until it sounds right.

gutsofgold · Post by **gutsofgold** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:10 pm

johnmarkpainter wrote:Don't be in a rush to change the Miking.
Player, Instrument, Room

Let the drummer listen to what he is playing. Then adjust his playing and do it again until it sounds right.

This seems like pretty great advice actually. I will let him listen next time and hopefully he can adjust what needs adjusting.

Would you think a higher ceilinged room would be beneficial? I can move out to a garage with probably 20 foot ceilings apposed to where this was recorded.

johnmarkpainter · Post by **johnmarkpainter** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:04 am

The High Ceiling will clear it up as long as the room istelf isn't too live.> Read the above post explaining how you could try moving the mic closer to your low ceiling though.

I've recorded the Same Drums/Room/Mics wtih many different drummers. The tone (mainly the cymbals) varie LIKE CRAZY.

@?,*???&? · Post by **@?,*???&?** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:52 am

gutsofgold wrote:What would you say is the biggest factor giving me this sound. Placement? the cheap preamps? shitty cymbals possibly? Or just the mic and the fact that there is only one of them to pick up all the cymbals.

Yes. No specificity.

You've got a very awkward balance of drums in the mic. None of the drums sound like they would be in an ambient balance. When you stand in front of the kit- what do you hear? How loud is the bass drum? The snare drum? The hi/hat? The ride cymbal?

I learned many years ago that different instruments are different volumes. The DW drumkits are many decibels louder than those vintage Gretsch kits. You've got a mismatch of instruments here handicapped by the lack of more than one mic.

majortom · Post by **majortom** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:08 pm

I have to agree with the prof,
I think I'm hearing wood tips and I also wonder about the cymbal angle.

Nylon tips would give more articulation on the ride and also if you could get the angle of the cymbals so that when you hit them you are catching both the tip and a bit of the neck you will get more attack with a good amount of decay. Plus on bigger thicker rides putting a bit of gaffers tape on the ends stops some of the wash and then playing more towards the bell (not on the Bell) will give you a higher more defined attack.

Cheap or not the all the cymbals seem to fall into the low mid range of sound, you might want to make your next cymbal purchase a thin crash or even a larger splash, the higher tone would compliment the others. Tom

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