recording drums - overheads

[cyantologist]

Just was wondering how everyone tests for phase cancellation when positioning your overhead mics for drums. Is there a tried and true method or is it just guess and check?

[red cross]

Try stereo micing using a near-coincident technique for starters. Personally, I just prefer a mono overhead.

[I'm Painting Again]

Just was wondering how everyone tests for phase cancellation when positioning your overhead mics for drums. Is there a tried and true method or is it just guess and check?

listen in mono..place where it sounds best..XY is pretty simple because you put the capsules next to each other as colose as possible..

[cyantologist]

yeah the next time i record, i plan on doing a single overhead with stereo room mics. and i think it should sound awesome, but at the moment i'm mixing something i recorded a few weeks ago and trying to get the drums as good as possible. i guess i just wanted to know if there was some sort of "right way" to check for phase cancellation that i was unaware of so that it might save me some grief in mixing.

thanks for the input! and i guess i've got nothing against doing the xy thing, but i don't want to feel like i'm stuck doing that just because i'm afraid to do a spaced pair or something else.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

do you mean checking for phase between the two overheads or between those and the rest of the mics? if the former, then what B+W said, just listen in mono. if the latter, then go through the mics and flip the phase, see what sounds best. like do just kick and overheads, flip the kick back and forth. one way will have more low end. likewise if your snare mic is out of phase with the overheads the snare will get this really honky weird quality to it when you listen to the mics together...it doesn't necessarily sound 'phasey' but it doesn't sound good either, you'll hear it.

if you're on a computer you can zoom in and look at the waveforms and see if they're all going in generally the same direction at generally the same time. BUT sometimes what looks wrong sounds right so the usual 'ears' cliches apply.

[drumsound]

I find one speaker mono to be very helpful. When I'm tracking drums I put them all to the left, because I'm down at that end of the console. When I'm happy with the relationships/coherency then I pan them out as needed.

[palinilap]

I've found it helpful to position both mics the same distance from the snare. You can do this just using a rope or cable to measure.

[tenchijin2.]

Remember, you'll *always* have phase issues when using spaced pairs over a wide instrument set like drums. It's impossible for two mics to be 'in phase' relative to all drums in the kit simultaneously.

The issue is whether it's in the audible range that is being emphasized or whether it's just part of what our normal hearing uses as spacial cues.

To me, I want the OH's to be in phase relative to the snare drum, so I measure each mic to the exact same distance from the snare. I like that big stereo snare sound in the OHs. But there will be frequencies from other drums where phase issues will occur. Generally they aren't noticeable because the human ear can fill in the gaps pretty well.

That said, the easiest thing is just to use your ears. If you hear something that sounds 'whooshy', or very 'thin' then you've got a nasty phase problem.

[T-rex]

The best way I know is to tackle it from left to right for me. Record the drummer playing the kit, start playing it by solo'ing groups and flipping the phase to hear if anything sounds better or worse. solo the bass and overheads, then the snare and overheads, then tackle each group.

If you want to get visual, put up a frequency analyzer and watch the low end. I usually always do it by ear, but one time I put up the Waves PAZ just to see and it was amazing the difference. If two mics are out of phase you can watch the low end just drop out completely when you switch.

[joel hamilton]

listen for the most flattering position. a little notch at 3k can be nice...

just flip the OH's and listen. Leave the close mics alone if they are all sounding good to you, and move the OH's until you find a spott you think is good. if you want to be able to repeat those results, take a good look at what you wound up with for a minute, or get really nerdy and measure from a common point to the mics.

[inverseroom]

Does anyone use a stereo mic as an overhead? I've got Scodiddly's Stereo Alice set up to try this but haven't yet hit record....

[roscoenyc]

Does anyone use a stereo mic as an overhead? I've got Scodiddly's Stereo Alice set up to try this but haven't yet hit record....

I don't know that mic but I bet you'll like it.

We have been using the Royer SF12 for several years as the main drum overhead at CTS.
I usually have it from 42 to 48 inches directly up from the snare. It has become the rule phasewise. I line the other mics up to that one.

[inverseroom]

I don't think Scott made a lot of the stereo Alice...it's a wonderful SDC.

[Shawn Simmons]

I use two drum sticks (end to end) to measure from the middle of the snare. Once my overheads are somewhere close to that distance, I flip the phase and it's good to go.