Taking the plunge from an analog to digital mixer?

[junomat]

So the time has come to think about a new mixer. I've been using analog consoles for longer than I can remember.

But I'd like to give myself more space. Currently my mixer is 7' wide. It has 32 channels, but I am never using them all. I feel like I no longer need a gigantor mixing console and would like to consider a digital console.

I'm using the MOTU 24 i/o w/ a Mac and a Soundtracs Quartz and would like to consider a digital mixer that has channel inserts and aux sends for headphone mixes. I do also use some outboard gear.

Can anyone recommend if this is a foolish move? Are people happy with digital mixers?

The TASCAM DM-3200 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DM3200/) or the TASCAM DM-4800 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DM4800/) look nice, but is it too good to be true? Are there any other addons I'd need for it to work with Digital Performer? I reckon I wouldn't need my MOTU 24 i/o anymore, right?

Any insight would be tremendous.

Thanks!

[GooberNumber9]

I love love love my Yamaha 01V96. I've never used the Tascams but in the stores they have seemed kinda cheapie. Still, they're probably great for recording (I've used the Yamaha mostly live) and I know the Tascams have transport controls which the Yammie's dont.

Auxes on digital mixers are awesome because you can mix the aux busses from the faders (like a control surface in "flip" mode).

The sound will change if you go digital. I can't tell you whether you'll like it more or not, but gigantor might sound better to your ears.

Todd Wilcox

[calaverasgrandes]

Okay I am going to expose my naivte` and just stick my head out there. Ergonomics aside, why would you want to mix in a digital mixer if you can just mix in the box instead?
.
Do the Tascam or others have DSP on the mix buss to give a deeper (64 bit floating point for example) resolution?
I just dont see the point unless you are using ADATs or something. It seems it would do better to just have good convertors and a control surface.

[junomat]

Okay I am going to expose my naivte` and just stick my head out there. Ergonomics aside, why would you want to mix in a digital mixer if you can just mix in the box instead?
.
Do the Tascam or others have DSP on the mix buss to give a deeper (64 bit floating point for example) resolution?
I just dont see the point unless you are using ADATs or something. It seems it would do better to just have good convertors and a control surface.

Can you use outboard gear with good converters and a control surface? How does that work? IE. Inserts and aux sends?

I am new to this and am open to your idea, but just need to understand how it all works.

Can you give me suggestions and examples?

Thanks to both of you!

[calaverasgrandes]

Well for me the whole idea of mixing in the box obviates the need for most outboard gear. I still have a couple good compressors. But I actually use those going into the system when I record. I still have a mackie hooked up, but dang if I ever use more than 2 channels of it. Its mostly to have an oh shit knob to grab if something bad happens.
that and to be able to control my headphone mix better.
My patchbay sees the most action. I suppose if I was in a more public commercial environment I would NEED a mixer. But if I had my druthers I'd prefer a big ugly analog mixer.

But actually, yeah you can patch outboard to a DAW thru the interface. It better be something you cant do in a UAD or a powercore though! Like a spring reverb, a moogerfooger or a neve (I do that all the time with the former 2, dont even own the latter)

[junomat]

Well for me the whole idea of mixing in the box obviates the need for most outboard gear. I still have a couple good compressors. But I actually use those going into the system when I record. I still have a mackie hooked up, but dang if I ever use more than 2 channels of it. Its mostly to have an oh shit knob to grab if something bad happens.
that and to be able to control my headphone mix better.
My patchbay sees the most action. I suppose if I was in a more public commercial environment I would NEED a mixer. But if I had my druthers I'd prefer a big ugly analog mixer.

But actually, yeah you can patch outboard to a DAW thru the interface. It better be something you cant do in a UAD or a powercore though! Like a spring reverb, a moogerfooger or a neve (I do that all the time with the former 2, dont even own the latter)

Another thing is price.

Can I get 24 channels of converters and a control surface for ~5k?

What are some good quality examples?

I am still learning all this vocab.... so bear with me... Thanks!

[calaverasgrandes]

easily. Going the cheap route (which I did) you could get the motu 828MKII,
its 10 analog inputs and 10 outs plus optical for another digital 8 in and out, and spdif for another 2 in and out. These are rock solid on the Mac side. windows not solid sometimes. You could get 2 of them and have the Black Lion mod done for a little more than $2000. The latest Mackie control surface is about $1200.
Of course you could get some more upmarket converters like Lucid or Apogee or I am sure others here with more experience can reccomend others.

I actually use an old Digidesign R1 control surface.(I think its from the session 8 ?) Mostly just for transport, mute, solo and track arming. I never got really into automated volumes. And it doesnt have those fun moving faders so I am not tempted.

[junomat]

easily. Going the cheap route (which I did) you could get the motu 828MKII,
its 10 analog inputs and 10 outs plus optical for another digital 8 in and out, and spdif for another 2 in and out. These are rock solid on the Mac side. windows not solid sometimes. You could get 2 of them and have the Black Lion mod done for a little more than $2000. The latest Mackie control surface is about $1200.
Of course you could get some more upmarket converters like Lucid or Apogee or I am sure others here with more experience can reccomend others.

I actually use an old Digidesign R1 control surface.(I think its from the session 8 ?) Mostly just for transport, mute, solo and track arming. I never got really into automated volumes. And it doesnt have those fun moving faders so I am not tempted.

Ok. That makes sense. I've seen those 828's and they look great.

If i went the Yamaha or Tascam route as discussed before, I would not need the something like the MOTU pieces? Correct? I am trying to understand that aspect.

I think I am leaning more towards that.

Thanks!

[calaverasgrandes]

Well you still will need to get into your computer if thats how you record right?
Some of those mixers have firewire connectivity I am sure.
What I have been more into lately is trying to have the best DA for just the 2 mix and doing all the rest in the box. i figure with a decent deep bit depth on the mix buss you really just need the best conversion to hear it. I suppose you could get more DA if you plan on doing sends and such but then you get into latency compensation.
i am sure a lot of guys here will throw up their hands in disgust, but I tried external summing and mixing "on a wire" and I didnt notice enough of a difference to warrant all the extra hassle.

[Sean Shannon]

I use (2) Panasonic DA7s. They are fantastic digital mixers, and can be found on the used market for under $1000. Get the meter bridge and a couple of cards for it (ADAT, Analog), and you are set. Great pres, great sound, inserts, etc.

The thing I like about them is the 32 channels of gates and compressors, 4 band EQ, 6 auxes, digital and analog connectivity, and complete, instant, total recall. You can set up scenes for tracking, set up scenes for mixing each song, etc., and recall them with a touch of a button. The late Denny Purcell gave them glowing reviews. Also, moving fader automation and MIDI control surface with MMC.

Did I mention they sound great? They also pack a lot into a fairly small space, with 16 mic pres on 1 layer, and 3 more layers. It's a large mixer with a small footprint. You can also hook it up to your computer for backing up scenes and for automation. It's also a workhorse. I've owned 2 of them for at least 5 years without any issues. Look for internal software v.2.

IMHO, they sound and feel better than digital mixers from Tascam, Mackie, and Yamaha.

I can't stand mixing in the box. I need my hardware outboard gear. Yeah it's easy to say just use the comps on the way in to the computer, but I use a lot of comps and EQs during a mix, and I own a boatload. I do use plugins, but in combination with outboard goodies.

[calaverasgrandes]

these da7's
two questions
do they go to 88.2 or 96k/
do they have dsp processors? emphasis n the multiple?
amen to the compressing while tracking when recording digitally. Makes a world of difference even if its only like 1-3 db gain reduction. But I still compress in the box.
I guess what I am curious about is how a digital desk is different or better than a DAW with a control surface. If they come loaded with DSP cards then those probably are a cool deal.

[Sean Shannon]

The DA7s are 44.1 and 48. I never use 96, and I have all analog cards, so I use it just like an analog console with recall, and in that case, sampling rate doesn't matter.

Although there are no effects built in, outboard reverbs and delays, etc., sound fabulous. Combined with the EQs and compressors on the DA7, the load on your CPU is greatly reduced.

The difference between using a digital mixer and using a control surface is that you have:

inserts for hardware processing
On board compressors, gates, and EQs
Complete signal routing for zero-latency headphone mixes
Complete studio routing of audio signals
Mic preamps
Switching for playback sources
It works without a computer
Visual feedback of EQ curves and compression/gate curves
Per-channel delays
Channel grouping
It passes audio

[pineyb]

I did the DA7 thing when it first came out. Like you, after years of analog console mixing, I decided to go all digital. My DA7 was equipped with 3 AES/EBU cards which went straight into 3 888 24 I/Os. In that configuration, I couldn't use the inserts at mixdown, which was a drag.... so make sure of how you set up your system. The DA7 sounded pretty good, and was fast and reliable in use. Total recall was great, you could mix until you were tired of it, then listen, then go back the next day for the tweaks. I did some good pop type projects with that setup...... I did find that dense material with multiple distorted instruments were kind of difficult to get right, and I was never thrilled with those tracks. OK but not great, and I spent way too much time on them.

The DA7 went out the door.

A 1972 all discreet class a 24 channel Calrec MK II broadcast console came in the door. The pres are basically identical to Neve 1066s. 3 sends and 4 stereo busses plus master.

I was in the middle of a crazy pop/rock project at the time... wild dynamic changes, clean stuff, distorted stuff, etc. The material was well recorded using nice outboard.....and well played. I was having a real hard time getting what I wanted from the DA7... not wide enough, and not deep enough. OK but not great.
I took a week off, installed the Calrec... and it was faders up (or in this case down) and the songs were there.... big deep and wide.... finished off the mixes in a couple of days, and everyone was really happy.

Really, really do your research and try the digital thing, it might work for you. It was not the best solution for me though.

[calaverasgrandes]

pretty much any modern DAW with a control surface will have full recall and automation. With my one TC powercore, lots of ram and a fast dual core CPU I never run out of power for EQ, dynamics and reverbs. Though I basically just hipass a bunch of things and do a couple 2-3 db midrange dips.

The thing about outboard vs computer processing (for me at least) is that a decent hardware compressor or EQ runs $300-1000. And you get one channel maybe two. The really good computer plug ins start at a couple hundred and go up to $500 or so. And you can use as many as your hardware supports. The software version of an 1176 or SSL buss comp are not quite exactly the same as the real deal. But I am getting gigantic bass and guitar sounds even without the "authenticity".
Some daw front ends (828MKII f'rinstance) have zero latency monitoring. Though as mentioned in many places, it is a pain to do multiple monitor mixes by mouse! (the 828 supports the mackie control if you have one though)
Btw the 828 can easily do 4 different zero latency monitor mixes. So far never had to do more than 3.

Thats a drag that those DA7's only go to 48. I am really enjoying 88.2 and 96 on most of my stuff.

[Sean Shannon]

Of course you can argue that a compressor is only one channel, and a software compressor can be used on many channels, and automation is in the computer. We all use that stuff now, and it's nice to have an audio mixer that remembers everything. And of course a Calrec console from 1972 with Neve clone preamps sounds different than a digital mixer. Smooth. I have many different consoles, and they all sound different from each other. I think that's cool.

It all ends up digital in the end, and the DA7 has quality converters, albeit 48K tops. Fine for me, sounds great. You do lose your insert points in an all digital setup, which is why I use analog cards for that setup.

Outboard gear just adds something nice, and it's a PITA with in the box mixing to use outboard gear. Hands-on, baby!! I love using a console, and the OP was asking about digital consoles. I certainly use plugins, but the combination with stuff like tube EQs and comps is smooth. One feeds the other.

But, I have found that the DA7 sounds like what goes in. We still use them in the B room, mostly for utility tracking stuff, and I'm still amazed at how good they sound, and what a dependable workhorse they are. Although I have mixed tons of stuff on the DA7s, I am fortunate enough to have an SSL and gobs of outboard gear in the next room over, so I mix in there, as any gear junkie would. I do find the mixes have greater depth, so I am not disagreeing on that. I would do all projects on analog tape, for that matter, if everybody didn't need so much editing, tuning, and other crap I get bogged down in from day to day.

Tracks from that DA7 room do hold up very well, though. It stands up against all the other digital boards. We still count on it every day.

Many people do everything in the computer, but it's just not my bag. Although I have a huge investment in plugins, I like real drums, guitars, keyboards through an amp, graphic EQs, tube comps, Eventides, distressors, etc.

It is what it is.