Ideal uses for Blumlein pair?

[Corey Y]

I recently purchased a pair of Cascade Fat Head IIs and they upgraded me to the Blumlein package for free, due to a custom service snafu. I've read a bit about the technique, but can anyone give some feedback on what the best uses are for it? Does it work well for a drum overhead setup or better for a single acoustic instrument or general room sound? I figured since I have it I might as well try using it.

[JWL]

You can use Blumlein anywhere you would do stereo micing.

Remember, fig8 mics have large null spots, use these to your advantage. One example: for singer/songwriters who play guitar and sing, I will often put a Blumlein pair so that they form an equilateral triangle between the mics, the voice, and the guitar. This way the null point for the guitar is pointed at the voice, and the null point for the voice is pointed at the guitar. You can get a surprising amount of separation if you do this right.

Of course I rarely mix this as a stereo pair, but it gives you an idea. 2 tracks of reasonably-well isolated, phase-coherent music.

[aitikin]

I like using a Blumlein for big bands in the box (sorry, obscure reference there). Often times in a rehearsal you can put the saxes facing the bones and the trumpets facing the rhythm section (change whose facing who as you wish) and I'll setup the Blumlein in the middle. It gives me a good idea which section is doing the worst right now and how to help em.

Little obscure, but it's nice.

I've also used a Blumlein for recording a choir in a Basillica, and for recording a Wind Symphony with auxiliary instruments around the audience.

Basically, any situation where you like the acoustics, Blumlein can be a great choice.

[C_R_J]

so stop me if im totally off here.

can i use to identical mics instead of a figure 8 mic?

i understand how to do it, but i just cant figure out on my own if the fact that it comes from one mic, and not two, has anything to do with it.

heres where im reading.

http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/dece ... tent4.html

thanks

[drumsound]

so stop me if im totally off here.

can i use to identical mics instead of a figure 8 mic?

i understand how to do it, but i just cant figure out on my own if the fact that it comes from one mic, and not two, has anything to do with it.

heres where im reading.

http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/dece ... tent4.html

thanks

The technique references in your link is Mid/Side (M/S) Where there's a cardioid or omni mic pointed at the source (Mid) and a figure 8 mic a 90 degrees to the Mid mic called the Side mic. The figure 8 is multed to 2 channels and the polarity is reversed on the front side. The combination of the mid +side or the mid -side creates a stereo image that one can adjust the width of by varying the amount of the 2 side channels (+and -) in relation to the mid channel.

Blumlein is achieved by using 2 figure 8 mics in a coincident pair, at a 90-degree angle. Basically X/Y but with figure 8s instead of cardioid mics. It sounds really great because of the back lobes of the mics picking up a good amount of room while the fronts get more of a direct sound. I like Blumlein for any room mic situation and also for backing vocals done in stereo by a group. I also did a really cool dueling guitar solo where I had the amps facing the front of the mics, but the figure * picked up a nice room tone. I had the 2 players play at the same time so there's a nice sense of left and right along with good musical interaction.

[C_R_J]

i get it now. im talkin about 2 different things. both of which interest me now.

ok. so i dont own any figure 8 mics. will the ms one work if for instance i use a cardoid i have up on top, and 2 mics back to back underneath it, with on reversed?

sorry if im totally missing something.

what does a decent figure 8 mic run? like more near the bottom. aka. where my broke ass can afford em.

[tenchijin2.]

Hi CRJ,

Yeah, not at all the same thing with 2 mics back to back. The thing with the M/S pair is that the image is created by the lobes of the fig 8 mic picking up different sounds, but on the same track.

it's hard to explain for me.

But basically what you're proposing is just a '3 mic setup'. You could blend them in any way and get something nifty (or not) but it isn't, in any way, a M/S or Blumlein.

[themagicmanmdt]

grab a nady rsm-2. that's the cheapest ribbon that's good, and it's actually pretty damn good for what it is.

[ashcat_lt]

based on this I'd have to say there's no good reason you can't record M/S with three cardiod mics.

[C_R_J]

Hi CRJ,

Yeah, not at all the same thing with 2 mics back to back. The thing with the M/S pair is that the image is created by the lobes of the fig 8 mic picking up different sounds, but on the same track.

it's hard to explain for me.

But basically what you're proposing is just a '3 mic setup'. You could blend them in any way and get something nifty (or not) but it isn't, in any way, a M/S or Blumlein.

but if you think about it, like lets say i used 2 of the same mics, back to back. i flip ones polarity. the only thing that would be different would be the fact that it is indeed not exactly the same thing going into both mics, since its 2 different ones, but its close, and when its a figure 8, it is comin in on 2 different sides.

sorry if it seems im splittin hairs. i really like to get to the very bottom of things so that i think i have a better understanding of whats goin on.

im gonna try recording tomorrow with one of my rode nt5s up top, and my 2 at 2020s underneath back to back and polarity flipped. just for the f of it. ill prob try in front of drumset, and above looking down too. im interested how itll come out. i can put up some wavs of it if you like. im a dork like that. ha. night. im not sober.

[themagicmanmdt]

two cardioids does not a figure 8 make.

a figure 8 has a tighter response that seems to not overlap much with the cardioid mic in M/S. using two cardioids instead of a fig 8 may cause more of that pattern overlap, and result in a less stereo image.

[C_R_J]

ah. thats what i was wondering. i was thinkin it would overlap. thanks for the response though.

im still interested on using the 3 like i said though. im gonna try it here in a bit.

lookin into figure 8 mics now though. thanks all for sparkin my interest(s)

[C_R_J]

theres a bunch of nadys. rms 1 2 3 4 5 on up. the 2s are ok? what about the other ones? just curious.

[drumsound]

two cardioids does not a figure 8 make.

a figure 8 has a tighter response that seems to not overlap much with the cardioid mic in M/S. using two cardioids instead of a fig 8 may cause more of that pattern overlap, and result in a less stereo image.

The null on a figure 8 is going to be mor promanant and effective in relation to the mid mic.

As an asside I've done a bunch of M/S on an acoustic Irish music record I'm working on. I switched the Mid from cardioid to omni and I'm really diging M/S with an omni mid.

[tenchijin2.]

but if you think about it, like lets say i used 2 of the same mics, back to back. i flip ones polarity. the only thing that would be different would be the fact that it is indeed not exactly the same thing going into both mics, since its 2 different ones, but its close, and when its a figure 8, it is comin in on 2 different sides.

No reason to be sorry, creative thinking is beneficial to the process.

However, with two cardioids back to back you're already going to have some odd phase issues between the two of them. So flipping the polarity on one of them may not be of benefit at all... they might already be out of phase while tracking! Generally mics that are pointed in exact opposite directions picking up the same source are out of phase to a large extent.

To be clear: it may be very cool in any case! It just isn't M/S.