Producers - What do you pay composers/players?

[AudioJunky]

I've been recently asked to possibly write some horn lines for an up-and-coming (aren't they all?) artist on a very well known label... and the whole up-and-coming thing is somewhat believable since the artist has about 8,000 plays a day on his myspace page along with some major airplay lately.

I want to be up front with the producer but not unreasonable. The last artist I did this for ended up using my horn lines as part of the song even when the horns weren't on the gig (covered by the synth player). I even learned that other horn sections that joined this artist on gigs were transcribing the parts I wrote. So.....

Do you ask for a cut of a song (credit wise) before writing the lines?
Do I not ask for any credit and just charge a flat fee for writing the lines?
or...
Do I ask for a very reasonable fee for writing the lines AND credit? (What % would a producer part with for horn lines he ends up using?)

Thanks for the input....!

[echosound]

i've been in a similar situation. if the lyrics and melody are already completed then "legally" thats the song, at least thats how a publisher, courts and most songwriters would see it. Also artists can be very touchy when it comes to their publishing %'s. i've seen drummers let go over things like this, kinda sad but i've seen it more than once.
it's usually treated as a work for hire type deal and $$$ should be coming out of the production budget. you are entitled to credits, that's completely reasonable. something like "strings arranged and composed by"
so i guess i would say ask for a reasonable fee for writing the lines AND credit on the album, but asking for points or publishing might be pushing it.
cheers

[A.David.MacKinnon]

i guess i would say ask for a reasonable fee for writing the lines AND credit on the album, but asking for points or publishing might be pushing it.
cheers

Agreed. Make sure you ask for a realistic amount of money for the charts ie: don't undersell yourself. Talk to some other people doing the same kind of job and see what they charge.

As for pay for players - call the union and find out what scale is. It's usually based on 3 hour sessions. Even if you're not a union member it will give you a good idea what the going rate is.

[@?,*???&?]

"Write some horn lines?" Co-publishing.

Make a major distinction between playing on a recording and writing melodic content.

Think of it this way, if your parts are background or accompaniment, Union wage of $300 for a 3-hour session would apply. I've seen musicians do the cool guy overdub for $50 to $100 bucks a song.

If your parts are 'primary focus' and occur between lead vocal or other lead instruments and the part is not written for you, but rather by you, you deserve co-publishing.

Think of it even another way. When you sing the song later in your head, what do you hum? If your parts are there at any point, you deserve co-publishing and nothing less.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

"Write some horn lines?" Co-publishing.

Further proof that it's a fine line between songwriting and arrangement.
Just because you chart a melodic part doesn't make you any different from any other player who writes (or improvises) a catchy part for a song. If the bass player on the session comes up with a cool line that acts as a musical hook to the song should they then get a cut of publishing?

The answer is "I don't know".

The more realistic question to ask is "will I still get hired to write horn charts if word gets out that I will demand a cut of the publishing?".

[@?,*???&?]

If the bass player on the session comes up with a cool line that acts as a musical hook to the song should they then get a cut of publishing?

Unless the bass line is a solo instrument or has some kind of solo treatment where it is a standalone melodic instrument, I can't see the bass working independently as a hook without drums or some other element and therefore would say no, the bass cannot play a hook.

[Nate Dort]

If the bass player on the session comes up with a cool line that acts as a musical hook to the song should they then get a cut of publishing?

Unless the bass line is a solo instrument or has some kind of solo treatment where it is a standalone melodic instrument, I can't see the bass working independently as a hook without drums or some other element and therefore would say no, the bass cannot play a hook.

Another One Bites The Dust
Under Pressure
Good Times
Take a Walk on the Wild Side
Money
Superfly

[echosound]

in the lou reed Transformer making of dvd they talk about the recording of "walk on the Wildside" They interview session bassist Herbie Flowers. He told a funny story about how session musicians would try to get the producer to let them double their melody line on another instrument, thus earning themselves twice they pay (union rules). he played electric bass and stand up double bass. he created a cool distinctive part, it is a hook. But thats why you hire a session musician in the first place. the song was written before Herbie got to the studio. He got payed double and the world gets a timeless ode to transvestite love...

[@?,*???&?]

If the bass player on the session comes up with a cool line that acts as a musical hook to the song should they then get a cut of publishing?

Unless the bass line is a solo instrument or has some kind of solo treatment where it is a standalone melodic instrument, I can't see the bass working independently as a hook without drums or some other element and therefore would say no, the bass cannot play a hook.

Another One Bites The Dust
Under Pressure
Good Times
Take a Walk on the Wild Side
Money
Superfly

Yup, all melody riffs and the bassist should be due publishing.

[Dan Phelps]

"Write some horn lines?" Co-publishing.

Further proof that it's a fine line between songwriting and arrangement.
Just because you chart a melodic part doesn't make you any different from any other player who writes (or improvises) a catchy part for a song. If the bass player on the session comes up with a cool line that acts as a musical hook to the song should they then get a cut of publishing?

The answer is "I don't know".

The more realistic question to ask is "will I still get hired to write horn charts if word gets out that I will demand a cut of the publishing?".

In my experience working as a sesh dude (guitar), you generally get paid what you get paid for the day, and unless the artist or producer is uncommonly generous, that is the extent of it. In the course of a day I could come up with a guitar hook, or part under the chorus that greatly effects the vibe of the song. I have been on sessions where the players wrote a new instrumental interlude for one song because it needed to go somewhere different. SO, it is up to the artist to decide if they want to cut 3 other people in on their songwriter's publishing.

Which they probably don't, if they have a normal record deal, because it's going to be a long time before they recoup all the money spent on the studio, producer, engineer, and MUSICIANS (that's you). So if there is any chance for them to make some money in the near future, it is on their publishing.

That being said, I think you can structure it any way you want based on how badly you want the gig and how flexible the artist/producer is. One thing I have seen done is musicians playing on a project (usually independently funded) for the demo, or "bro" rate, with the agreement that if it gets picked up they will get paid the balance to bring it up to their regular rate.

Another factor is...if you arrange the horn lines for them, and they don't use them, you have still done the work anyways. They're getting your talent AND YOUR TIME. So what you ask for also makes a statement about what you consider your talent and time to be worth. Only you can judge that.

All of that to say, if they want to offer you publishing and you feel good about that as part of your compensation for your work, go for it, but don't expect it. I think it is RARE.

Pick a number that seems fair to you for the amount of work that it will be. Ask for that number. They might come back and say "How about xxx?" If it's agreeable, say "Yeah, that would be fine." If not, say "I can't do it for that amount" or "What if we agree that I will do it for xxx, but if it gets used and the record comes out, I get the rest to bring up to xxx."

Additionally, if you can talk to ANYONE other than the artist (a manager, producer) about money, do it. And if you make some sort of agreement with conditions for what you would get paid when if xxx happens, then get it in writing. With those two things in mind, the artist doesn't have to talk to you about money and you can (hopefully) have a creative relationship with them and if it's in writing then there can be no...ahem..."mis-understandings."

And most of all, remember that as a for hire musician, you are in the Service Industry, and being straight forward, upfront, friendly, helpful, and hardworking are the things that will get you work again and again. If you are confident, low drama, and kind, that speaks volumes about where you are coming from and that you aren't just trying to get the most money possible out of the situation.

Hope this is helpful.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

"Write some horn lines?" Co-publishing.

Further proof that it's a fine line between songwriting and arrangement.
Just because you chart a melodic part doesn't make you any different from any other player who writes (or improvises) a catchy part for a song. If the bass player on the session comes up with a cool line that acts as a musical hook to the song should they then get a cut of publishing?

The answer is "I don't know".

The more realistic question to ask is "will I still get hired to write horn charts if word gets out that I will demand a cut of the publishing?".

In my experience working as a sesh dude (guitar), you generally get paid what you get paid for the day, and unless the artist or producer is uncommonly generous, that is the extent of it. In the course of a day I could come up with a guitar hook, or part under the chorus that greatly effects the vibe of the song. I have been on sessions where the players wrote a new instrumental interlude for one song because it needed to go somewhere different. SO, it is up to the artist to decide if they want to cut 3 other people in on their songwriter's publishing.

Which they probably don't, if they have a normal record deal, because it's going to be a long time before they recoup all the money spent on the studio, producer, engineer, and MUSICIANS (that's you). So if there is any chance for them to make some money in the near future, it is on their publishing.

That being said, I think you can structure it any way you want based on how badly you want the gig and how flexible the artist/producer is. One thing I have seen done is musicians playing on a project (usually independently funded) for the demo, or "bro" rate, with the agreement that if it gets picked up they will get paid the balance to bring it up to their regular rate.

Another factor is...if you arrange the horn lines for them, and they don't use them, you have still done the work anyways. They're getting your talent AND YOUR TIME. So what you ask for also makes a statement about what you consider your talent and time to be worth. Only you can judge that.

All of that to say, if they want to offer you publishing and you feel good about that as part of your compensation for your work, go for it, but don't expect it. I think it is RARE.

Pick a number that seems fair to you for the amount of work that it will be. Ask for that number. They might come back and say "How about xxx?" If it's agreeable, say "Yeah, that would be fine." If not, say "I can't do it for that amount" or "What if we agree that I will do it for xxx, but if it gets used and the record comes out, I get the rest to bring up to xxx."

Additionally, if you can talk to ANYONE other than the artist (a manager, producer) about money, do it. And if you make some sort of agreement with conditions for what you would get paid when if xxx happens, then get it in writing. With those two things in mind, the artist doesn't have to talk to you about money and you can (hopefully) have a creative relationship with them and if it's in writing then there can be no...ahem..."mis-understandings."

And most of all, remember that as a for hire musician, you are in the Service Industry, and being straight forward, upfront, friendly, helpful, and hardworking are the things that will get you work again and again. If you are confident, low drama, and kind, that speaks volumes about where you are coming from and that you aren't just trying to get the most money possible out of the situation.

Hope this is helpful.

Good post^^^^.