How to draw the line between demo and full-out recording?

[Cryonicsound]

Hey all, I have a bit of a connundrum for you all.

I was considdering offering a five-song demo package for a certain amount, when it occurred to me: how the heck do I determine when to draw the line on how much work I put in? I could easily see people taking advantage of a said offer if I am not going by the hour. For those of you who offer demo packages, how do you go about drawing the line to say "this is a demo by my terms. If you want more, I'm $X an hour" ?

[fossiltooth]

Hey all, I have a bit of a connundrum for you all.

I was considering offering a five-song demo package for a certain amount, when it occurred to me: how the heck do I determine when to draw the line on how much work I put in? I could easily see people taking advantage of a said offer if I am not going by the hour. For those of you who offer demo packages, how do you go about drawing the line to say "this is a demo by my terms. If you want more, I'm $X an hour" ?

Simple answer. It all boils down to Time.

Structure the deal based on the number days or hours you think is fair for producing good sounding "demos" of the artist's material. As with any package rate, you may want to leave room in the budget to allow you to devote a bit more time than discussed if you're falling behind, or if the artist's talent really deserves the extra attention.

I don't charge a different rate for demos. I charge my basic day or hourly rate. The only thing that's different is the expectations of the artist and the amount of time they decide devote to the recording. I just finished recording a 3 song "demo" for a band. If you ask the band, these new demos "sound better" than their last album! They were so excited by the process and the sounds that they decided to pay for a bit more time than originally discussed to begin taking the material to another level. That doesn't necessarily stop the recordings from being "demos". The arrangements could be perfected, and if they approached the material again it could get even better.

Just come up with a rate structure and time frame that works for both you and the artist, and try your best to exceed the client's expectations.

I really believe in preproduction demos. They don't have to be multitracked, but they can be. Having some complete reference of the songs and arrangement is a great thing. If you do really well, some or all of the preproduction demos could turn into final material, but that shouldn't be the expectation.

[sears]

This is the way demos sound to me: it sounds like they spent little to no time getting sounds. The studio has a way of getting acoustic guitar, piano, etc. that sounds like all their demos do. They also probably have vocalists and instrumentalists in case the client needs to hire it.

I make my own records. If I ever wrote something I wanted a demo of, this is what I'd expect.

[Boogdish]

no more than five takes, only vocals overdubbed.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I don't charge a different rate for demos. I charge my basic day or hourly rate.

Exactly. Keep your rate the same and emphasize how much time will be needed to do a demo vs a real recording.
At some point every free lance engineer needs to decide what they are worth and stick to it. In my experiance cutting deals often leads to people taking advantage or worse - not taking the the session as seriously as you do. If the artist knows what a day is worth they often work like mad to get as much done as possible. Cutting deals can also undermine your image as a legit studio/producer/engineer. In the past I've knocked myself out to go above and beyond for clients while giving them a big break on fees only to have them take their next session to a bigger more expensive studio where no deals are offered. The thinking seems to be "If sounded this good at that cheap place just think how much better it will be at the big, expensive place". Many times they come back. Sometimes not.
I guess what I'm trying to say is be careful. If you appear cut rate or cheap clients will think of you that way. Set your rate as so that you get what you need while still being affordable. Then stick to it and do great work.

[roscoenyc]

what those guys said about time....

I would add that if the demo is multitrack try do do a good job on recording the vocal. Early versions/takes of vocals can be really great. Never know when you might really want to use it in a master later.

[@?,*???&?]

A record or recording is a document of the time. The amount of time spent making sure the art stands up to the test of time is your call. Great musicians either take less time turning in great performances or spend more time making sure it sounds like they are great musicians.

I've railed on about the 'demo' release vs. 'legitimate' release and the distinction is real. Are you a band? An entity? An artist with a whole list of tour dates? A legitimate release should be in your future- mastered, pressed with barcode.

Are you a dreamer? Lazy musician? Have a few core ideas, but never really seem to turn out anything fantastic or 'real' or competently performed? If so, then 'demo' now until the woodshedding and musical vision come in to focus.

You should have a good sense of where your art is at.

[fossiltooth]

A record or recording is a document of the time. The amount of time spent making sure the art stands up to the test of time is your call. Great musicians either take less time turning in great performances or spend more time making sure it sounds like they are great musicians.

I've railed on about the 'demo' release vs. 'legitimate' release and the distinction is real. Are you a band? An entity? An artist with a whole list of tour dates? A legitimate release should be in your future- mastered, pressed with barcode.

Are you a dreamer? Lazy musician? Have a few core ideas, but never really seem to turn out anything fantastic or 'real' or competently performed? If so, then 'demo' now until the woodshedding and musical vision come in to focus.

You should have a good sense of where your art is at.

I disagree. The "Legitimate" artists are the ones who need demos the most! Artists on a much smaller scale and who are less realistic about pursuing a career in music can and should just record a whole bunch of stuff and put it out there. Great! Lots of cool records have been made that way, and the awful ones are quickly forgotten.

On the other hand, just about every single major release you own started with preproduction demos.

Hell, I have some cassette copies Sonic Youth preproduction demos. Even bands on that "level" and "below" are routinely going into the studio to cut demos of their material. Although major labels are doing fewer "Demo Deals" because they expect artists these days to have their own passable recordings, they're still around. I've worked on a couple demo sessions for Warner Bros. and others.

Most good indie bands and all major label bands tend to go through the same process: Record most or all of your songs quickly and well. Listen. Reflect. Alter arrangements. How were the Tempos? Think about the recording approach and overall production aesthetic. Change form and/or lyrics.

OK. Now record it "for real".

[@?,*???&?]

If the artist is a viable entity, then they have the mechanism to sell discs. Without that, any disc will languish. If there are no means to promote and sell, then make it for as cheaply as you can and accept the fatalistic state of making a recording.

[fossiltooth]

If the artist is a viable entity, then they have the mechanism to sell discs. Without that, any disc will languish. If there are no means to promote and sell, then make it for as cheaply as you can and accept the fatalistic state of making a recording.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic or my response to you. You have worse ADD than the "kids" you're incessantly complaining about.

Anyway, even if it had anything to do with anything, your point has no substance. Hootie and The Blowfish and Hanson had the mechanisms in place to sell records, but they were unable to on their last outings. Like them or not, Clap Your Hands Say Yeah were able to sell 250,000 copies of their record without those same mechanisms in place. You don't have a meaningful definition for the term "viable entity". Without that, you can't begin to make your argument.

[@?,*???&?]

If the artist is a viable entity, then they have the mechanism to sell discs. Without that, any disc will languish. If there are no means to promote and sell, then make it for as cheaply as you can and accept the fatalistic state of making a recording.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my response to you or the original topic. You have worse ADD than the "kids" you're incessantly complaining about.

Anyway, even if it had anything to do with anything, you're point has no substance. Hootie and The Blowfish and Hanson had the mechanisms in place to sell records, but they were unable to on their last outings. Like them or not, Clap Your Hands Say Yeah were able to sell 250,000 copies of their record without those same mechanisms in place. You don't have a meaningful definition for the term "viable entity". Without that, you can't begin to make your argument.

Thank you for your subjective response to my subjective response! Applause! Applause!

Yikes.

[RefD]

so "legitimacy" is to be measured only in terms of commercial success?

bleh.

[joelpatterson]

so "legitimacy" is to be measured only in terms of commercial success?

bleh.

That, and whether or not the parents were married.

[lotusstudio]

I dont do demos

Let them do that in their basement with a mic hanging from the ceiling

Since it's so easy now to get great quality, why waste time doing anything less? Plus, what if they release it anyway ? I don't want my name on something that sounds really deficient

[@?,*???&?]

I dont do demos

Let them do that in their basement with a mic hanging from the ceiling

Since it's so easy now to get great quality, why waste time doing anything less? Plus, what if they release it anyway ? I don't want my name on something that sounds really deficient

Yes!