basement space soundproofing

[jkretz]

howdy,

my bandmates and i are currently struggling to find a new house in which to practice. in pittsburgh, many of the houses share walls with the neighbors and i am wondering what would be the best way to go about building a space in which we can rehearse.

i've read into using two sheets of drywall + green glue to "sound proof" a basement ceiling. what about the shared concrete walls? should we attempt to build full walls to connect to that ceiling and create a poor mans "room within a room". it seems crazy but would hanging mass-loaded vinyl, a few inches from the walls around the practice space, actually provide much?

thanks,
-josh

[DrummerMan]

It seems that most people consider MLV to be pretty useless, at least when compared to more efficient and lower-costing sheetrock. Your best solution here, I think, is room-within-a-room. Build separate walls out of 2x4's or 2x6's if you have the space, then do the double sheetrock/green glue thing. If height is an issue, you could forgo framing out a ceiling and hang your double sheetrock on some rc2 resilient channel strips.

You've probably heard it before, but it's always worth repeating: get Rod Gervais' book. It'll answer the vast majority of the questions you have now and most of the ones that will come up in the future.

[JWL]

First tip: pick up Rod Gervais' book, Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros. This book goes into great detail about how to achieve good isolation. It will be by far the best $25 you can spend on your build.

The best thing you could do would be to build a separate room within a room, ie, new walls in front of the concrete walls, anchored to the concrete floor, with a new ceiling up above that attached to the new walls. This new structure cannot be coupled to the existing structure anywhere except the concrete floor.

On these new walls and ceiling, put 2 sheets of drywall on ONLY ONE SIDE of the framing, with greenglue in between (read up on 2 leaf vs. 3 leaf).

Once built and framed, seal everything up with acoustic caulk to make it airtight, add some insulation, and then take care of acoustic treatment inside the room. If you build it right, this strategy will yield very good results.

Obviously, this is a lot of work, much of which doesn't make sense to do if you have a small budget or if it's a rental space that you'll be leaving soon.

Given that, I'd consider installing 2 sheets of drywall with green glue between on Resilient Channel or RSIC clips on the ceiling. You won't need to do much to the concrete; not a lot of sound will be getting through... and it certainly won't be the weak link in your soundproofing.

Plus, there is the HVAC/air issue..... 4 or 5 guys sweating in a highly insulated, airtight room.... trust me. Add some AC and do it right.

Good luck.... be prepared to do some research and do it right. Soundproofing requires mass, airtightness, and specific, often counterintuitive construction techniques.

[jkretz]

i'll definitely grab that book, does the resilient channel make a large difference if i'm already using green glue?

also - is this a total waste of money for a rental space? is there anything more "salvageable" that i could build and possibly move to other spaces in the future?

[JWL]

For soundproofing, no there isn't a quick, portable fix. It's all about construction.

Yes, RC will give you an additional 3-6dB of isolation. RSIC-1 clips will give you 6-10dB of isolation. All in addition to iso gains with green glue.

Another option is to add "beef" to the upper floor, between the ceiling joists, by cutting drywall into 16" strips (or however much space you have between your joists) and installing them up against the ceiling using cleats. If possible, use 2 layers of drywall with green glue between.

If it's a rental space, I'd stuff insulation between the joists, install a RSIC-1 channel, your 2 layers of sheetrock with greenglue, and call it good. You'll be out a few hundred bucks (depending on how big the space is) but you'll make a real improvement to sound iso. But it won't be perfect, you'll still have to be aware of how sounds is affecting neighbors.

[adam]

jkretz,

I don't know what kind of band you have, but I've been recording rock in basements for ten years, all the while trying to keep my wife from divorcing me. She hasn't yet, but not because of any great success I've had "soundproofing". I've done the "beefing up" thing that JWL mentioned, including proper spacers and materials, and although it definitely helps, the fact is that unless you are willing to spend a LOT of time and money, drums and bass will eat you alive.

I hate to be a defeatist, but you may want to consider trying to find a place without Siamese neighbors instead of thinking you'll be able to contain the noise. Sounds like that might be tough in Pittsburgh, but I doubt it would be tougher than soundproofing. Of course, if you guys play bluegrass and are just worried about bothering neighbors with rye-fueled banter, then maybe some sheetrock is your ticket.

Good luck,
Adam

[roygbiv]

Just to be contrary to the above advice about LMV, I remember a post awhile ago suggesting that one can use mineral/tar paper roofing material for soundproofing a basement.

You can find it by searching for "Brian" and "vinyl".

Although his suggestion was mostly discounted by people who know a lot about acoustics, maybe there is something to what he is saying (I don't think he is claiming it completely soundproofed, but that it merely helped).

His posts on other subjects seem knowledgeable. Most importantly, it seemed like he had personal experience (or knew people who did) with this roofing material helping to sound proof a basement. So, who knows. Can't hurt you to PM him.

Here's the post in question:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... ight=vinyl

[JWL]

I remember that thread, it's more than 2 years old now. Has anyone tried that limp-hanging MLV thing? I'd be very curious to see some hard data on that, and how it compares in terms of iso at all frequencies to proven techniques, ie, 2 leaf design, built with 2 layers of sheetrock with greenglue in between.

The fact that few people are talking about this method, still, 2+ years later is indicative.... but I'll keep an open mind until I see data. Even another anecdotal report, preferably detailed with pictures of construction techniques, SPL measurements, etc. would help.

[roygbiv]

I agree JWL, its curious.

It probably doesn't work as well as the more established methods, but if it did help, seems roof paper/MLV would have some advantages for basement ceilings:

1. Low ceilings would retain more headroom with MLV.

2. Less weight to stress the floor joist.

3. Installation would be easier.

4. Low cost (?)

(I was going to try it, but chickened out and used UltraTouch in the rafters. Soundproofs only some, but definitely improves the sound of the room and cuts down PA feedback)

[DrummerMan]

I believe that a lot of roof paper of the thick kind you're talking about still uses asbestos. I would be VERY nervous about doing this.

[mpedrummer]

Hey, jkretz -

Try looking in Brighton Heights - most of the houses in my neighborhood are NOT attached to the neighbors, which makes your starting point a lot easier.

Take 65 past the stadiums, then turn right at the first light (NOT the West End Bridge)

Or, hit me with a PM - I'll gladly show you around the neighborhood - always trying to pimp out BH!

Tim

[jkretz]

Hey, jkretz -

Try looking in Brighton Heights - most of the houses in my neighborhood are NOT attached to the neighbors, which makes your starting point a lot easier.

Take 65 past the stadiums, then turn right at the first light (NOT the West End Bridge)

Or, hit me with a PM - I'll gladly show you around the neighborhood - always trying to pimp out BH!

Tim

I would head out in that direction, but we're really trying to stay out in the east end (currently in point breeze - trying to get back to bloomfield / friendship area)

thanks for the suggestion.

-josh