Recording drums for the first time.

[mogazi!]

Hi everyone,
Me and a friend will be recording some drums in about a month. We both have a decent knowledge of recording but it's going to be the first time we use it for drums. We're going to a mid-priced studio so there will be some equipment but probably nothing too specific.

We have a clear idea of the sound we want: quite dry but not dead, clean but punchy so it sits nicely in the mix without being too prominent. Nothing pumped or dirty. The drums on this track are a good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UCbkG3lXAI

Now the only problem is getting that sound in recording:
Best approach for miking?
Which mics to use and where?
Any outboard during recording?
Where to place the drum in the room?
Any other particular tips?
Once recorded how should we approach the mixing of the drums? (just a few pointers)

Also, If there are any drummers out there any tips on tuning or playing would be appreciated.

Thank you!!

[antilog]

Just do some research on recording drums and try something out. Check out Glyn Johns method and others

http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/glynjohns.htm

Some folks like mics on each drum, others prefer a few well-chosen and well-placed mics to get the sound of the kit. I prefer simple.

Regarding outboard, I would make mic selection and placement a priority, then if you have extra time, look into the outboard situation, maybe experiment with dynamics (gating, compression, limiting).

[JWL]

The drums on that video are very compressed, especially the snare.

I love the Glyn Johns method, but it'll be hard to get a sound like that using the Glyn Johns. That said, I think the GJ method sounds better.

The best advice I can give is to spend some time in the room getting the drum kit to sound right, and leave plenty of headroom, I'd record with peaks at -18dB or even -12dB. This will help you down the road.

[roygbiv]

If you've never recorded drums before, I would recommend the "Recorderman" method, which is basically just a derivative of the Glyn Johns (which is also a great method, just a bit trickier to get right).

Here's a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

When I started seriously recording again a couple of years ago (after a 10+ year hiatus), I tried this approach after finding that video.

I was amazed at how well it sounded. The key is that by having te overheads the same distance from the snare and kick,there are fewer funny phase issues.

Just supplement the two mics with two more (a snare mic on top - SM57, whatever, and some kick mic). Bingo, with 4 mics you will have a pretty good drum sound. It won't be "super pro", and it won't be as dry and punchy as in the video you linked, but I guarantee you will be surprised at how definitely not bad sounding it is - it will sound like a drum kit, and with the two other mics, you can add compression/reverb/etc. on the snare, and pump up the kick for a "bigger" sound.

Aside - when I finally learned about and used this method in my basement recording, even when recording my super cheap old 60's Yamaha drum set I paid $180 for, it sounded great!

First time we used the Recorderman approach, the drummer in my band (and old guy like me) said "wow, that's the best I've ever heard my drums sound, and I've recorded in a few "real studios".

So, go figure.

I'll stop gushing now.

[E.Bennett]

The most important thing after the performance is the sound of the drum. Spend time picking the drum that suits your desired sound. Then spend more time tuning. The clip you provided has very controlled cymbals and a very simple arrangement ('single kick on 1 single snare on 3' type of thing). Paying attention to performance, tuning and arrangement is way more important than how many mics you point at the drums when trying to achieve a desired sound.

After performance, arrangement and tuning are sorted out, try close micing the kit and use a tight stereo configuration for overheads (maybe xy close to the kit over the snare?). You may want to doghouse the kick. Try a large diaphragm dynamic on the beater and a large diaphragm condenser about a foot outside the resonant head (if you use one). Try a fig. 8 pattern if you use it inside a doghouse. You might want to put a front of kit mic about 5 feet back from the kit. This can add a bit of room sound. Maybe gate the fok mic and key it with the snare if it sounds too roomy at mix.

Check for phase issues by monitoring in mono and bringing mics up one by one. If any of the drums start to thin out or weaken, there might be an issue. Try to isolate the two or more mics that aren't playing well together and adjust them at the source. After you get as close as you can to a punchy and phase coherent drum sound, try flipping phase on different channels and see if relationships between drums improve even further.

If you track with compression (which is probably not a bad idea with this sound), try to be gentle with threshold and ratio. Use the slowest attack and quickest release that you can get away with. You can always compress and limit more during mix.

This is by no means the only way or even the best way to track drums. It's simply one out of a million ways to do it. Hopefully it will at least give you a starting point or get your imagination spinning. Good luck and have tons of fun.

[elan]

thanks for the suggestions, i'm the friend of the OP.
well, examples:
how to mic the HH? which mic? a condenser like gefell, sm81, akg 451? or a simple sm57? or maybe a 441?

which is the difference between micing the HH with the mic perpendicular over the HH near the border and at 45?? where should i point at 45?? the bell or near the border?

than i thought to put 2x441 for the overhead, at 90? pointing outside (from the drummer to the ride and charlie more or less), than a re20 as mono room 50 cm or 1 meter (20/40 inch), than a sm57 for the top snare and a 421 for the bottom, pointing the center, slightly to the border (both pointing the same spot at 90?), than an sm57 or a condenser for the beater of the kick and a d112 or a d12 for the outside kick. we can use also a woofer for the kick (i just have to find a way to put it over a stand or something like that), i think is ok or i need something more?

i've also an at4047 which could be great for the room, but i prefer to use the re20, maybe could be cool using the 4047 as a "far room", at which distance could be the right place?

[chris harris]

If you're working in a mid-priced studio that you do not own, I'd make sure that a house engineer (with experience) is on hand to help you out. Lots of the questions you have are better answered by just trying different options and figuring out what works with the drums/player/gear/room you have to work with. If you don't have time to experiment, then make sure that there's an experienced house engineer on hand to point you in the right direction.

If you had simply said, "I've never recorded drums before, where do I start?", then the "recorderman" and "glyn johns" suggestions would be appropriate. But, having listened to the sample you provided, I can tell you without a doubt that you won't get anything near the sound you're after from those techniques.

The best advice you've received in this thread so far is to pay close attention to the arrangement and playing, close mic everything, with a tight stereo overhead pair and compress the snare.

Good luck!

[mogazi!]

Thanks for all of the replies so far.

We've worked on the arrangement so that it's essential and won't "choke" the song.
There is going to be an engineer on the day but part of the deal (and the challenge!) is that we'll do everything ourselves therefore I doubt he'll show us anything more than the routing of desk and live room. I'll try to ask anyway.

Could you go a bit more in depth on the "tight stereo overhead configuration" please?
I found this description of the XY technique: http://www.wikirecording.org/XY_Stereo_ ... _Technique. Should the center of the two axis be pointing at the snare? Be above the snare or generally over the middle of the kit? How far do you reckon? Any suggestions for overhead mics?

A real concern for me is to get a good "groovy" Hi-Hat sound as it will be carrying the song on most sections. Any tips on that?

As far as I can tell in terms of mics there would be:
1 - Kick Inside
2 - Kick Outside
3 - Snare Top
4 - Snare Bottom
5 - Hi Hat
6 - Rack Tom
7 - Floor Tom
8 & 9 - Overheads
10 - Room mic??

Any mics to add or remove?

Thanks!

[E.Bennett]

Without hearing the drums in the room, it would be impractical to give you specific distances and angles of close mics. Listen and experiment. Try a 441 on the hihat. Is it too dark? Move to an akg 451. Is it too edgy? Try a km84 or oktava mc012. Too much snare in the signal? Move it closer and angle it away from the snare. Unfortunately, there's no way to give this type of advice without being there.

As far as the xy configuration, it is just a suggestion for a starting point. It might be completely wrong for the kit/player/room. If you do use xy and want to keep your snare and kick beater in the center of the stereo image, bisect the kit through the center of the snare and where the beater hits the batter head of the kick drum. This will help keep those two elements centered in the stereo field.

It can't hurt to have all those mics you outlined on the kit. You don't have to use them all at mix.

Trust your own judgment. If a mic sounds bad switch it. Don't try to fix it at mix.

[lionaudio]

If you are more worried about the hi hat carrying the song as the most prominent percussive sound, you may want to overdub the hats. Only saying this since you aren't familiar with recording a kit, you probably aren't too familiar with multiple mic set-ups, or the phase relationships between two or more microphones. Overdubbing the hi-hat will ensure that they are going to be solid and present in the mix instead of potentially reducing them to a smear once all of your mics are brought up in the mix.

[mogazi!]

Good point! But in that case should I simply mute the original HH and replace it with the new, separately recorded, one? Or have the drummer not play the hat? (which might get a bit confusing and possibly negatively influence the performance)

[cgarges]

If you are more worried about the hi hat carrying the song as the most prominent percussive sound, you may want to overdub the hats.

Really? I would think that if the hi hats are supposed to be the most driving element in this situation, they should be recorded first, as in "with the rest of the drumkit." If you've got good cymbals and good technique, getting a good hi hat sound is about the easiest possible element of recording a drumkit.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[lionaudio]

If you are more worried about the hi hat carrying the song as the most prominent percussive sound, you may want to overdub the hats.

Really? I would think that if the hi hats are supposed to be the most driving element in this situation, they should be recorded first, as in "with the rest of the drumkit." If you've got good cymbals and good technique, getting a good hi hat sound is about the easiest possible element of recording a drumkit.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

My suggestion comes from the fact that he stated he has no experience recording drums. Good cymbals and good technique aren't going to fix this. There are an infinite number of things they can try, but since they are paying for studio time and throwing themselves into this as engineers, it seems to be the quickest/ most efficient method so as to not have to figure out during mixdown that the hi-hats that they are wanting to be so prominent in the mix are smeared and smudged. Yes it is "easy" to get a good hi-hat sound, but if you don't know anything about multiple mic recording, even what we see as "easy" can sometimes become a huge undertaking.

[lionaudio]

Good point! But in that case should I simply mute the original HH and replace it with the new, separately recorded, one? Or have the drummer not play the hat? (which might get a bit confusing and possibly negatively influence the performance)

Usually the best way to go about this is to have the drummer play it the same we he always does, but to substitute an object for the hi-hat so he is still striking something. This can be anything from a piece of hard rubber on a stand to a piece of cardboard. Whatever it is, just make sure it's not loud when it is hit, otherwise you end up with "taptaptaptap" in your snare mic. Once this is done, the drummer just does back and plays the hi hats as normal, usually "air-drumming" the rest of the kit. You can also do this backward, starting with the hats then doing the rest of the kit. I normally don't overdub cymbals , but it can be really cool sometimes, especially for more gated or electronic sounds from a real kit.

[cgarges]

My suggestion comes from the fact that he stated he has no experience recording drums. Good cymbals and good technique aren't going to fix this. There are an infinite number of things they can try, but since they are paying for studio time and throwing themselves into this as engineers, it seems to be the quickest/ most efficient method so as to not have to figure out during mixdown that the hi-hats that they are wanting to be so prominent in the mix are smeared and smudged. Yes it is "easy" to get a good hi-hat sound, but if you don't know anything about multiple mic recording, even what we see as "easy" can sometimes become a huge undertaking.

I've never done any sort of "one limb at a time" drum recording that didn't take MUCH longer than it should with a drummer who hasn't done this A BUNCH. In terms of not spending a lot of time on it, I'd say mic the hi hats and be done with it. If there are issues with not knowing how to close mic stuff on a drumkit, miking the hi hat is going to be the least of those issues.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC