Hey Guys,
I'm a recent graduate of a state college 4 year audio-production program and am currently unemployed.
I am interested in interning, and i was wondering if anyone had any personal, and hopefully inspirational stories (and advice), about how they made it into the recording biz?
Much thanks.
getting your foot in the door
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k2zepprider
- audio school
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:38 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH
Route 1:
Find a studio in the area you want to work in and talk to the owner, see if you can work something out as an intern.
Route 2:
Buy some gear, business cards (the absolutely most important piece of gear out there), and go to local shows and try to get someone who wants to do a demo.
I chose route 2, but whatever works for you.
If you go route 1, expect to do the bitch work and be happy to do it. Work hard and help out, be nice but don't speak when you're not supposed to. If you do that, they'll see that you really wanna work there and get you some ass. engineer time.
Oh, and don't expect to get paid for interning.
Find a studio in the area you want to work in and talk to the owner, see if you can work something out as an intern.
Route 2:
Buy some gear, business cards (the absolutely most important piece of gear out there), and go to local shows and try to get someone who wants to do a demo.
I chose route 2, but whatever works for you.
If you go route 1, expect to do the bitch work and be happy to do it. Work hard and help out, be nice but don't speak when you're not supposed to. If you do that, they'll see that you really wanna work there and get you some ass. engineer time.
Oh, and don't expect to get paid for interning.
"It's not a recording studio without a lava lamp"
~Mark Rubel
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
~Mark Rubel
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
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jmiller
- steve albini likes it
- Posts: 396
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:53 am
- Location: North Hollywood, on Radford near the In-N-Out
Right now is a brutal time to break in to the traditional business. There are so many grads out there looking for work and the available positions are dwindling every day. But it's always been brutal in one way or another.
Everyone is different. Some are happy to be recording local indie bands in their basement, others want to be behind a large frame console in a professionally built room outfitted with all the top end outboard gear. And, lots of people have strong opinions as to which is more valid than the other. But the important thing is what YOU want, not what a bunch of greasy anonymous slobs (like me) think.
Start by assessing your goals. What kind of career do you want? You can always change this as you go along, and you probably will. But I'm guessing that since you went through the trouble and expense of going to a 4 year school, you probably want to get into a working, professionally built facility of some sort.
That is almost certainly going to mean interning. There is a lot of confusion as to what that means, especially with people that haven't done it. Sometimes it may mean logging tapes/drives in and out of the vault. Sometimes it may mean comping vocals while the engineer smokes out in the lounge. Or it could mean mopping the floor and answering the phone. Sometimes, it's all of these things. You will want to find a place to work that will suit your goals in some way. If you're wanting to work in the more "high-end" (whatever that means) field of pop or whatever, you will obviously want to find your way into a high end facility. If more underground, lower budget or indie stuff is your thing, you might be more happy finding a small "engineer operated" (usually one room) type of place. These places will often give you more responsibility and faster than a full fledged facility, but you might not necessarily get a whole lot of variety in your experience (i.e. if the owner does a lot of indie rock you might not get a lot of experience in film scoring, pop mixing, or a whole lot of different music styles and techniques, depending on what their bread and butter is).
Of course, there's no rule that you can't go from one type of place to another.
You have a right to expect to be treated fairly, but that does not mean you have a right to have your hand held or that you won't have to do work that is unpleasant. I find that attitude to be even more offensive than cleaning toilets. Studios don't hire interns because they want to launch your career. They do it because they need help and they need it from people who understand, to some degree, the specialized business they are in. Depending on where you land a gig, you may have to do things that you'd rather not do. Be a grown up and deal with it. Do it with a positive attitude. No one likes a whiner, even when the whining is warranted. Even the people whose jobs you want to have are dealing with lame shit that they don't want to do. If you have a real grievance, talk to your boss about it calmly and succinctly, at the right time, and try to have a solution that also benefits them. A studio manager's job can make toilet scrubbing seem like a dream job, so they don't want to hear an endless parade of bitching.
Be persistent. Positions are scarce. Send a place your resume, then call and follow up. You'll probably hear the "we have no positions available, we'll keep your resume on file" speech a lot. Call again in a couple months or so. Make a list of the ideal places to land a gig and call them every once in a while.
Don't expect your education to be valuable to anybody other than yourself. Education without real-world experience won't mean a lot to the person hiring you, even if it's impressive. Don't think you've got it in the bag because of your degree and certifications. That sort of attitude pisses everybody off. But if you've got a good background AND a good personality that the hiring manager feels will benefit his/her facility, you've got a good chance.
If you do land a gig somewhere and you spend all your time at the desk on Facebook or making beats, don't expect a promotion any time soon. If you spend your time helping out the assistants with their duties and your off-hours in an unbooked room learning the gear, you just might get asked to help out when a big session comes in and the assistant has his/her hands full. But don't expect to be moved up just because you sat around on your ass for 3 months. You don't get points for time. Also, be realistic. You're not going to get promoted to "ass engineer" in a 2 room facility that already has 2 full time ass engineers.
Depending on what you want to do, you may need to move to a market that's relevant to your goals. Don't do this lightly. The "big" markets like L.A. and New York are really expensive to live in and are already filled with people doing exactly what you're trying to do. It may be useful to try and build some experience in your local market first. But, if you do have your eye on LA or NY, don't be surprised if you have to start at the bottom (at least as a paid runner) again.
Everyone is different. Some are happy to be recording local indie bands in their basement, others want to be behind a large frame console in a professionally built room outfitted with all the top end outboard gear. And, lots of people have strong opinions as to which is more valid than the other. But the important thing is what YOU want, not what a bunch of greasy anonymous slobs (like me) think.
Start by assessing your goals. What kind of career do you want? You can always change this as you go along, and you probably will. But I'm guessing that since you went through the trouble and expense of going to a 4 year school, you probably want to get into a working, professionally built facility of some sort.
That is almost certainly going to mean interning. There is a lot of confusion as to what that means, especially with people that haven't done it. Sometimes it may mean logging tapes/drives in and out of the vault. Sometimes it may mean comping vocals while the engineer smokes out in the lounge. Or it could mean mopping the floor and answering the phone. Sometimes, it's all of these things. You will want to find a place to work that will suit your goals in some way. If you're wanting to work in the more "high-end" (whatever that means) field of pop or whatever, you will obviously want to find your way into a high end facility. If more underground, lower budget or indie stuff is your thing, you might be more happy finding a small "engineer operated" (usually one room) type of place. These places will often give you more responsibility and faster than a full fledged facility, but you might not necessarily get a whole lot of variety in your experience (i.e. if the owner does a lot of indie rock you might not get a lot of experience in film scoring, pop mixing, or a whole lot of different music styles and techniques, depending on what their bread and butter is).
Of course, there's no rule that you can't go from one type of place to another.
You have a right to expect to be treated fairly, but that does not mean you have a right to have your hand held or that you won't have to do work that is unpleasant. I find that attitude to be even more offensive than cleaning toilets. Studios don't hire interns because they want to launch your career. They do it because they need help and they need it from people who understand, to some degree, the specialized business they are in. Depending on where you land a gig, you may have to do things that you'd rather not do. Be a grown up and deal with it. Do it with a positive attitude. No one likes a whiner, even when the whining is warranted. Even the people whose jobs you want to have are dealing with lame shit that they don't want to do. If you have a real grievance, talk to your boss about it calmly and succinctly, at the right time, and try to have a solution that also benefits them. A studio manager's job can make toilet scrubbing seem like a dream job, so they don't want to hear an endless parade of bitching.
Be persistent. Positions are scarce. Send a place your resume, then call and follow up. You'll probably hear the "we have no positions available, we'll keep your resume on file" speech a lot. Call again in a couple months or so. Make a list of the ideal places to land a gig and call them every once in a while.
Don't expect your education to be valuable to anybody other than yourself. Education without real-world experience won't mean a lot to the person hiring you, even if it's impressive. Don't think you've got it in the bag because of your degree and certifications. That sort of attitude pisses everybody off. But if you've got a good background AND a good personality that the hiring manager feels will benefit his/her facility, you've got a good chance.
If you do land a gig somewhere and you spend all your time at the desk on Facebook or making beats, don't expect a promotion any time soon. If you spend your time helping out the assistants with their duties and your off-hours in an unbooked room learning the gear, you just might get asked to help out when a big session comes in and the assistant has his/her hands full. But don't expect to be moved up just because you sat around on your ass for 3 months. You don't get points for time. Also, be realistic. You're not going to get promoted to "ass engineer" in a 2 room facility that already has 2 full time ass engineers.
Depending on what you want to do, you may need to move to a market that's relevant to your goals. Don't do this lightly. The "big" markets like L.A. and New York are really expensive to live in and are already filled with people doing exactly what you're trying to do. It may be useful to try and build some experience in your local market first. But, if you do have your eye on LA or NY, don't be surprised if you have to start at the bottom (at least as a paid runner) again.
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Gentleman Jim
- buyin' a studio
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:38 am
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ott0bot
- dead but not forgotten
- Posts: 2023
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:54 pm
- Location: Downtown Phoenix
ditto. great post man.Gentleman Jim wrote:jmiller, that post was so good I feel like we each owe you a dollar.
On a side note if you have your own recording gear and can go mobile, that is a great way to earn some cash and get your name out there. Then if you land a real studio client you can bring them into a studio you have interned at and get commission (if they do that) or get the band to cover the stuido rate and have them pay you as an engineer. If you have a decent home set-up you can also bring them there. This works especially well with singer/songwriters if you are a drummer and/or multi-instrumentalist.
Side effects can include:
-Long hours without much pay
-uncredited songwriting participation
-Flakyness
-nausea from trite lyrics
-loss of spousal support and/or affection
But there are several positive aspects, most notably building your resume so studio's can actually take you seriously. Having work references I've found is pretty helpful when applying for a job, and this field is no exception.
But keep your head up and keep applying, be willing to relocate and work long hours. If you are a capable and trainable person, who doesn't act they already know everything, I'm sure there will be a few places willing to give you a chance.
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k2zepprider
- audio school
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:38 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH
-
@?,*???&?
- on a wing and a prayer
- Posts: 5804
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 4:36 pm
- Location: Just left on the FM dial
- Contact:
I can't speak for how to do it today.
I made it at a time when not everyone and their brother had their own software and DAW.
What's your skill-set like?
Where is your 4 year degree from? What kind of degree is it?
Also, most people are working out of their homes:
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... 8&i=384617
Can't you work there?
I made it at a time when not everyone and their brother had their own software and DAW.
What's your skill-set like?
Where is your 4 year degree from? What kind of degree is it?
Also, most people are working out of their homes:
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... 8&i=384617
Can't you work there?
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k2zepprider
- audio school
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:38 am
- Location: Cleveland, OH
ohio university, with a major in audio-music production, and a minor in music.
i went to college because thats what you're suppose to do after high school, right? i entered undecided, and tho science was my strong point, i went with my passion and enrolled in the audio program.
the studio, and audio staff (though small in numbers), was great. but my fellow classmates, and i were personally screwed because the console (neve 5088) was out of commission for most of the time during my advance courses. so instead of recording two songs from two separate bands, as the class syllabus specified, i only got to record one song from one band.
im currently working on building my home studio. i have a profire2626 interface, my DAW is logic express (no plug-ins yet). have a single sm57 in my locker and i think santas got a at3035 on the way. so it's small, but steadily building.
besides my single track from school, i don't have anything else in my portfolio besides a few commercial exercises i also completed in school.
im all about keeping a positive attitude, and i feel completely capable of being a persistent intern (doing bitch work and not opening my mouth, etc) i enjoy learning and want to learn everything and anything audio.
i just don't have a connection, a mentor, a way in, and many of the studios iv looked into told me they don't even take interns that arn't still in school. i know i can succeed if i can get my foot in the door, but it's getting my foot in the door that's been the problem.
i went to college because thats what you're suppose to do after high school, right? i entered undecided, and tho science was my strong point, i went with my passion and enrolled in the audio program.
the studio, and audio staff (though small in numbers), was great. but my fellow classmates, and i were personally screwed because the console (neve 5088) was out of commission for most of the time during my advance courses. so instead of recording two songs from two separate bands, as the class syllabus specified, i only got to record one song from one band.
im currently working on building my home studio. i have a profire2626 interface, my DAW is logic express (no plug-ins yet). have a single sm57 in my locker and i think santas got a at3035 on the way. so it's small, but steadily building.
besides my single track from school, i don't have anything else in my portfolio besides a few commercial exercises i also completed in school.
im all about keeping a positive attitude, and i feel completely capable of being a persistent intern (doing bitch work and not opening my mouth, etc) i enjoy learning and want to learn everything and anything audio.
i just don't have a connection, a mentor, a way in, and many of the studios iv looked into told me they don't even take interns that arn't still in school. i know i can succeed if i can get my foot in the door, but it's getting my foot in the door that's been the problem.
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MoreSpaceEcho
- zen recordist
- Posts: 6691
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:15 am
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@?,*???&?
- on a wing and a prayer
- Posts: 5804
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 4:36 pm
- Location: Just left on the FM dial
- Contact:
And those stats are here:ott0bot wrote:-loss of spousal support and/or affection
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... 8&i=384749
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TapeOpLarry
- TapeOp Admin
- Posts: 1667
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 11:50 am
- Location: Portland, OR
- Contact:
"it's nuts how different u approach an audio job compared to, say, any other job."
It's also a very different job to most service industry stuff. If you hire a plumber, dentist or caterer, you can get feedback from other folks that is somewhat quantifiable. "She fixed my sink and it stayed fixed." If you start asking around about an engineer, producer or studio you can get all sorts of varied feedback based on expectations, insecurities, outside factors and all sorts of situations that can help a session go good or bad. A person that can do a great job with one artist might not succeed as well with another, and these reasons could be anything under the sun! There's certainly a Catch-22 going on, where your discography can get you work but how do you get this work in the first place? In my experience that initial part involves so much more than knowledge, and comes down to personality, being able to be and act in the moment, and treating people well.
It's also a very different job to most service industry stuff. If you hire a plumber, dentist or caterer, you can get feedback from other folks that is somewhat quantifiable. "She fixed my sink and it stayed fixed." If you start asking around about an engineer, producer or studio you can get all sorts of varied feedback based on expectations, insecurities, outside factors and all sorts of situations that can help a session go good or bad. A person that can do a great job with one artist might not succeed as well with another, and these reasons could be anything under the sun! There's certainly a Catch-22 going on, where your discography can get you work but how do you get this work in the first place? In my experience that initial part involves so much more than knowledge, and comes down to personality, being able to be and act in the moment, and treating people well.
Larry Crane, Editor/Founder Tape Op Magazine
please visit www.tapeop.com for contact information
(do not send private messages via this board!)
www.larry-crane.com
please visit www.tapeop.com for contact information
(do not send private messages via this board!)
www.larry-crane.com
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Wagz
- takin' a dinner break
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:44 am
- Location: Kalispell, MT
- Contact:
Aside from everything else posted here, here are some other options and things you can do to get some experience and boost your resume.
If you go to church, or know any local venues who play shows quite often, start hanging around the sound guy (with their permission)
This gives you basic groundwork on mixing. Although you aren't recording you are in a situation where mic's are being setup, you are using multiple inputs and mixing them together (obviously). You are dealing with DI, wrapping cables, working with EQ, dealing with different vocal styles and band dynamics.
And assuming the sound guy knows what they are doing this also gives you a chance to learn some tips and tricks from someone who's been at it a while. Even if they don't have a degree they have experience. Once you start learning the practical, all that sound theory you learned will start kicking in and you can start being able to apply it creatively.
I am also a big proponent of the "Buying gear and start doing" frame of mind. Get experience working with bands. You have some equipment, so work with what you have as well. if you only have a couple of mics you can still do acoustic guitar and some type of vocals. Go to a coffee shop, talk to the guy who's there every Thursday for acoustic night and is good at playing. Ask if he wants to record a song or two.
You minored in music, so i guess your a better musician than me. This gives you a chance to practice recording the instrument(s) that you are good at without making yourself look like an idiot in front of other people.
its been stated, this is a hard business to get into. But if you are creative, and willing to work hard there are plenty of opportunities out there that will get you enough experience to get your foot in the door somewhere.
PS Jmiller, how do i send you your dollar?
If you go to church, or know any local venues who play shows quite often, start hanging around the sound guy (with their permission)
This gives you basic groundwork on mixing. Although you aren't recording you are in a situation where mic's are being setup, you are using multiple inputs and mixing them together (obviously). You are dealing with DI, wrapping cables, working with EQ, dealing with different vocal styles and band dynamics.
And assuming the sound guy knows what they are doing this also gives you a chance to learn some tips and tricks from someone who's been at it a while. Even if they don't have a degree they have experience. Once you start learning the practical, all that sound theory you learned will start kicking in and you can start being able to apply it creatively.
I am also a big proponent of the "Buying gear and start doing" frame of mind. Get experience working with bands. You have some equipment, so work with what you have as well. if you only have a couple of mics you can still do acoustic guitar and some type of vocals. Go to a coffee shop, talk to the guy who's there every Thursday for acoustic night and is good at playing. Ask if he wants to record a song or two.
You minored in music, so i guess your a better musician than me. This gives you a chance to practice recording the instrument(s) that you are good at without making yourself look like an idiot in front of other people.
its been stated, this is a hard business to get into. But if you are creative, and willing to work hard there are plenty of opportunities out there that will get you enough experience to get your foot in the door somewhere.
PS Jmiller, how do i send you your dollar?
Snoring Hound Studio
Kalisepll, MT
Kalisepll, MT
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Nick Sevilla
- on a wing and a prayer
- Posts: 5595
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:34 pm
- Location: Lake Arrowhead California USA
- Contact:
Re: getting your foot in the door
1.- Be persistent.k2zepprider wrote:Hey Guys,
I'm a recent graduate of a state college 4 year audio-production program and am currently unemployed.
I am interested in interning, and i was wondering if anyone had any personal, and hopefully inspirational stories (and advice), about how they made it into the recording biz?
Much thanks.
2.- Be Patient.
3.- Be On Time. Always.
4.- Be Persistent. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Cheers
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.
Re: getting your foot in the door
On Time means when they say be here at 5:00, you're here at 4:45. Not 5:00, and never even close to 5:01...noeqplease wrote:1.- Be persistent.k2zepprider wrote:Hey Guys,
I'm a recent graduate of a state college 4 year audio-production program and am currently unemployed.
I am interested in interning, and i was wondering if anyone had any personal, and hopefully inspirational stories (and advice), about how they made it into the recording biz?
Much thanks.
2.- Be Patient.
3.- Be On Time. Always.
4.- Be Persistent. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Cheers
"It's not a recording studio without a lava lamp"
~Mark Rubel
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
~Mark Rubel
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
Sorry too say, but I feel that interning now-a-days is an entire waste of time. All you really need to know is studio etiquette.
The best way to "get your foot in the door"? Bring paying bands into the studio and engineer your own projects.
As far as I know most studios will not offer you work unless you have some sort of name(meaning you have known work under your belt). The best way to get a name is meeting bands and convincing them to record with you.
The best way to "get your foot in the door"? Bring paying bands into the studio and engineer your own projects.
As far as I know most studios will not offer you work unless you have some sort of name(meaning you have known work under your belt). The best way to get a name is meeting bands and convincing them to record with you.
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