when do you "fire" your client?

[pixeltarian]

inspired by the bad interns thread, I have a similar question.

my current client:
- has never been on time. shows up at 4pm when we plan for 10am
- stays up till 6am the night before tracking MOST of the time and it shows in his performance and vocal takes. this is after I instruct him to get a good night's sleep.
-basically requires me to give him pep talks to combat his emo "I'm bad at everything" attitude.
- does not trust my methods and doesn't cooperate with anything but the part where I hit record (such as mic selection or planning of any kind)
- scheduling.... we'be been trying to finish a 5 song demo for a year.

I am doing this nearly free. I just told him to give me whatever he feels is fair when we're done. I want to believe a donation's based studio is possible, but if clients are THIS bad when it's not costing them money then I guess it might not be a smart idea.

I was thinking about a free with fee system where I list what I require and if they, for instance, don't show up on time they get a fee. if they are uncooperative or unprepared they get sent home and a fee. does this sound like it could work? do you guys have any strategies for difficult clients? any stories worse than mine?

[kslight]

I would just tell him you need to wrap it up to free up time for paying clients and you want the project done by (insert deadline) or you will charge him per hour or day (insert rate) for your time to finish the EP. Take a cash deposit up front to do billable work for him (and others) to avoid getting bit in the ass.

I think you need to define deadlines if you want to work for nothing, because if the guy isn't paying then he probably feels like he can do whatever and not be prepared, but if you tell him that the clock starts running at 10am I guarantee you he'd make an effort. I have a similar theory for college students...those who pay for school out of their own pocket try harder in school than those whose parents pay for it.

[chris harris]

Charging fines to your client based on their preparedness or behavior is a recipe for disaster. Just charge what you feel your time is worth to begin with. And, when you decide what your time is worth, consider that this isn't the only client that you'll ever have who is a pain in the ass.

[Nick Sevilla]

Give him a deadline, and stick to it.

If he wants to keep going with your after that, start charging per hour rate.

Stick to the schedule. If you start at 10 am, sit your ass in front of the console, do something on his project (mixing / editing) until he shows up. If he shows up at 4pm, that's his issue, not yours. you charge starting at 10 am because YOU started working on his project at 10 am.

I have a good friend who has a record that he has been "working on" for the last 12 YEARS!!! I know it will never see the light of day, because of his self-defeating attitude.

I finished mixing his album 5 years ago. I will NEVER touch it again. I even told him not to pay me, as long as I did not get to work on the damn thing ever again.

At least we're still friends. He understands it his issues that are making his album impossible to release.

Cheers

[Z-Plane]

Never do free, it undermines your entire mission. You can help all your pals out for next to nothing, but even if its 10% of list price, there is a huge psychological difference between free and very cheap.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

If you don't think your time and talent are worth anything why should anyone else?

[Scodiddly]

I'd be blunt. "This isn't working out. If you're not showing up when we agreed, then it's not worth what I'm being paid to continue this project".

[CurtZHP]

What Z-plane and Scodiddly said.

[cgarges]

The music community is full of incredibly awesome and interesting people. It's also full of lame assholes. It's often hard to predict which of those ANY of your clients are going to be. If you set yourself up to never deal with any proper business stuff (reasonable guidelines for business practices, such as, well, getting paid), then you'll become a target for people who don't ever think about those practices, either. So, if no one's thinking about any proper business stuff, you can't just expect that stuff to happen.

If you set up some guidelines, then the people who have it together enough to value your time and effort will pay you for it. You just have to protect yourself with things like deposits and a few guidelines that are totally normal in a professional work environment. There are literally HUNDREDS of threads on here about the same thing.

Everyone seems to think that they can somehow wind up being the one person immune to the need to collect a deposit and/or set some reasonable guidelines.

If you somehow think that you're going to single-handedly change the way artists have been behaving since the dawn of time, it's just NOT going to happen. Some people are gonna be assholes. That's not you, it's them. But you have to protect yourself from those folks who ruin it for all the good ones. Well, I guess you don't have to...

Trust me-- it's not that hard to do.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Jon Nolan]

we each teach people how to treat us.

[rwc]

If this session isn't music you think will advance you to superstar engineer status by association, bail.

The problem exists with the beginning. Relationships need clarity. If I start a relationship where I fix something for free everyday for a place, they have the right to feel slighted when I ask for money later, if I have established a history of being ok doing it for free. People can't handle these changes. I'll think it's unfair, and bitch about it, but the truth is they'll think it's unfair too, even though it's totally reasonable I request $ for services and that they show up on time, etc.

If I set the precedent, then I can't change it afterwards without meeting resistance.

At the beginning, be clear as to how things are going to work. Don't worry about what they will think. State how you need things to be and stick to it every step of the way, it's a great way to do business.

[fossiltooth]

You might not get along with every artist that comes in the door. If you rally can't make it work, personality-wise, you can refer these clients to another colleague, rather than "fire" them outright.

If I set the precedent, then I can't change it afterwards without meeting resistance.

Too true. Somebody smarter than me one told me: "People will treat you however you expect to be treated." That's been a pretty major lesson.

[Leopold]

I'm dealing with somewhat of a similar situation. This is the 2nd time I've worked with the band. The last time was a year and a half ago and I recorded a 5 song ep for basically a favor (they found a bass player for my band when ours quit and it really helped us out) and a $100. Initially it was going to be 3 songs free, then they asked if they could do a couple more. After that it was more and more time. Remixing, super knit-picky etc..After a while it had gone too far, we were even mixing the night before I was to move out of my spot and into a new studio.

This time around they wanted a discounted rate in my new place which I've spent quite a bit of money building up. I agreed as long as they did the entire project in my new space. From the get go, they dictated everything, which is fine but when they started questioning my choice of mics, I put a Beyer 201 on the snare and was asked why I wasn't using a 57, placement, I set up the tom mics when I looked back when i got to the control room the drummer was moving the mics around, what level I recorded instruments at ect...I realized, they just didn't respect or trust my skills and still saw me as the hobbiest in my old rehearsal space. (Recording is now my second job.)
For example: At one point i set up a 421 on the guitar cab, I went upstairs and it sounded thin and weak. I went downstairs to check the mic and the guitar player had pointed it vertically like an LDC. When I asked him about it he said "oh, I was just experimenting." (This, from a band that has no money nor time to waste.)

Every suggestion I'd make would get snubbed, at one point I told them their guitars needed to be intonated and they blew me off, then we do a ton of overdubs and guitars are out of tune....

They asked for a "quick, rough mix" and I sent it to them. The then said they didn't like it (even though they were the ones that called the shots on the sounds we were getting) and wanted to mix somewhere else, I told them that was fine but pay me my full rate since I came down with the agreement that they'd track and mix with me.
When they realized how much they would owe me they then agreed to mix with me.

After thinking about this I realized I didn't want to be involved with the project any longer and a few hundred bucks aren't worth the headache of these guys hovering over me questioning every time I move a fader or turn a knob and would probably want 8 songs mixed in one day with no breaks and rolling their eyes every time I have to take a piss.

I contacted them and asked that they give money they owed me for tape and they should mix somewhere they we comfortable.

So i learned a few things, 1) stick to what you think you are worth, 2) when people are cheap they are going to ask and expect more, 3) If people don't seem to trust you as an engineer it's time to have a discussion.

I think it's time to cut your losses, this guy doesn't seem to respect you or your time.

In contrast another band I'm working with has been really great, very respectful, lot's of "great job" moments, asking if I need a break, being very patient with trying different approaches with ideas and not being jerks if it doesn't work, and really creating a fun, enjoyable environment. Thank God.

Good luck,
Eddie

[ctmsound]

Set a deadline or start charging by the hour. Most projects I've done will get their ass in gear and get serious about their recording. The more you offer FREE, the more they'll take it for granted and spend their sweet time.

[Brian]

Find a competitor that may have "poached" from your pool and send him there and be done with it. Pretend you don't remember the poaching and insist that this client is THE ONE who will get them international acclaim.
Let them hate you. They will not poach twice.

See how I did that? I made it about something unrelated and pawned them off on someone else.
Now it's not about me or them, it's about poaching and punishing he poacher.
Nice, eh?