Greetings! Longtime lurker, first time poster.
I'm helping a band through preproduction, and we're having some sticking points on working with a metronome track running out of my DAW.
They're totally cool with using it, but we're running into problems with tempo changes during one of the songs. As they play it live, there's a hard tempo drop of about 15 bpm when they go to the bridge... after 8 bars of that, they speed up gradually over the next 4 bars back to the original tempo, which they ride to the end of the song.
I automated the click so there's a hard drop where it's supposed to be, and drew in a parabolic curve for the buildup. We've come up with a basic formula, so that a tempo map will work (ok, when I start you, there are 4 bars to feel the tempo, and I need you to count off during the 5th bar so the changes will be in the right place).
They're hitting the tempo change spots just fine, but they're getting frustrated because it throws them off and they play like shit for a bar or two til they lock in, and it just doesn't feel natural.
Right now, we're looking at tracking the song in three separate sections: top to the bridge, bridge alone, and buildup/end of the song. Looks like it will take some practice to get the buildup of tempos correct. I'm happy to work with them until we get it right, but I don't want to kill the fun mood of the song by working them to death.
Has anyone worked through this kind of problem before? How did you solve it?
Working with a tempo map
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goose42
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Working with a tempo map
Cheers,
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
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RoyMatthews
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lefthanddoes
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If they're starting to get pissed off and don't trust you that it's worth the effort to get it on the grid, you could take the click out for just that part.
If it's just a case of getting the feel right at the tempo change, you could have them play the end of the bridge at the slower tempo too, going into the bridge, so the feel is there by the time they hit it. Since it sounds like you're going to have to do some editing anyway, you could chop off the slow bridge bit and it should be a pretty easy edit to make sound good.
A third option is to map the tempo for that part according to how they naturally slow it down and speed it up, after it's been recorded. That's assuming they sound pretty good without a click.
The whole idea though, I think, is that when the tempo is solid, it gives you a secure feeling that it's not going to change. If it is going to change, that doesn't matter as much.
If it's just a case of getting the feel right at the tempo change, you could have them play the end of the bridge at the slower tempo too, going into the bridge, so the feel is there by the time they hit it. Since it sounds like you're going to have to do some editing anyway, you could chop off the slow bridge bit and it should be a pretty easy edit to make sound good.
A third option is to map the tempo for that part according to how they naturally slow it down and speed it up, after it's been recorded. That's assuming they sound pretty good without a click.
The whole idea though, I think, is that when the tempo is solid, it gives you a secure feeling that it's not going to change. If it is going to change, that doesn't matter as much.
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apropos of nothing
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Gregg Juke
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Yeah, I like the ideas above, if you have to track the band live (Do you? Why?). A step further maybe even; track each part separately and edit together, a la Teo Macero or Brian Wilson.
Another way (probably my prefered method), if you want a solid drum track all the way through, is to layer the recording by tracking drums only first, or drums and bass. They can still play together, but you only record drums. Then build everybody else's part on that once you have a solid drum track with all of the changes that you want.
Another thing that might help is to flesh out the tempo map a little so it's more of a demo-- add some keyboard pad chords and something with some sub-divisions to fill it out so it's more than a metronomic click.
IMHO though, a tempo map/midi map/play-along demo are much more suited to a tune that has a steady tempo throughout. Why not just drop the metronome and record them playing the song?
GJ
Another way (probably my prefered method), if you want a solid drum track all the way through, is to layer the recording by tracking drums only first, or drums and bass. They can still play together, but you only record drums. Then build everybody else's part on that once you have a solid drum track with all of the changes that you want.
Another thing that might help is to flesh out the tempo map a little so it's more of a demo-- add some keyboard pad chords and something with some sub-divisions to fill it out so it's more than a metronomic click.
IMHO though, a tempo map/midi map/play-along demo are much more suited to a tune that has a steady tempo throughout. Why not just drop the metronome and record them playing the song?
GJ
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jgimbel
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I've had to deal with this kind of thing a lot - I get a lot of people in here who have no experience with recording, as well as some friends who like extreme tempo/time signature changes (which I tend to do here and there in my own music too).
One thought I have is that if the band is having that hard of a time playing to a click that's mapped out to be imitating the changes they would be making on their own while playing at a show for example, then I would think the tempo isn't mapped out how they'd really do it. While playing to a click will most likely never be so natural for most people that they barely even pay attention to it and are still with it, it still shouldn't be a massive fight to play with it if it's mapped out to match closely to how they'd be playing it naturally anyway. So maybe more work needs to be done matching it to how they'd play it naturally. Sometimes with things like ramping up they're not linear or even fitting with a parabolic curve, it might have to look really weird on the map to feel right for what they're playing.
I've done the chunk-at-a-time thing too, and for me it really depends on the music. Some music is more..modular I guess? And the feel of the song isn't necessarily consistent through the song. I have a friend I record who writes in a kind of mathematical way, and we could replace one line of the song over and over all day, and in the end it wouldn't sound any worse than if it was one take all the way through. Then this past weekend I recorded a really great gritty blues rock band, and even splicing two takes together bordered on having it not feel so natural, because there's a vibe and looseness that carries through a whole take. If the song can handle being done in chunks without sacrificing the feel, go for it. Are they recording instruments separately or live? If it's separate, then even if the first instrument they lay down sounds the slightest bit forced to the tracks, sometimes the other instruments following that first one will work well enough to not make it sound forced once the click is removed.
One last thing (I promise), some people are suggesting not using a click. That can definitely work too, but obviously depends how you're laying down your tracks, if that'll work. Sometimes you need a click just for a little break in a song, but if you recorded the track without a click, you don't have that. I've had numerous situations like this, and the way we've done it is by having the first instrument recorded (a scratch, maybe), just played naturally, whatever breaks should be in the song. Then after that's recorded, you go to the first part after a break, and record clicking drum sticks along to the tempo of that part (or add midi clicks if that's your thing) usually just four clicks for 4/4, 3 for 3/4, etc. Then nudge those four clicks back into the break so they become a four-count for where it comes in after the break. That way when the next person records, when a break comes they let their instrument ring out or stop, whatever the part is, then they hear "1 2 3 4" and they're in again. You can do the same thing for parts that ramp up, kind of "perform" the click track on top of the scratch/whatever the first track is, keep doing it until it's a perfect match. Then you've got a "mapped" click that's perfectly matched to the completely natural way they'd play it.
One thought I have is that if the band is having that hard of a time playing to a click that's mapped out to be imitating the changes they would be making on their own while playing at a show for example, then I would think the tempo isn't mapped out how they'd really do it. While playing to a click will most likely never be so natural for most people that they barely even pay attention to it and are still with it, it still shouldn't be a massive fight to play with it if it's mapped out to match closely to how they'd be playing it naturally anyway. So maybe more work needs to be done matching it to how they'd play it naturally. Sometimes with things like ramping up they're not linear or even fitting with a parabolic curve, it might have to look really weird on the map to feel right for what they're playing.
I've done the chunk-at-a-time thing too, and for me it really depends on the music. Some music is more..modular I guess? And the feel of the song isn't necessarily consistent through the song. I have a friend I record who writes in a kind of mathematical way, and we could replace one line of the song over and over all day, and in the end it wouldn't sound any worse than if it was one take all the way through. Then this past weekend I recorded a really great gritty blues rock band, and even splicing two takes together bordered on having it not feel so natural, because there's a vibe and looseness that carries through a whole take. If the song can handle being done in chunks without sacrificing the feel, go for it. Are they recording instruments separately or live? If it's separate, then even if the first instrument they lay down sounds the slightest bit forced to the tracks, sometimes the other instruments following that first one will work well enough to not make it sound forced once the click is removed.
One last thing (I promise), some people are suggesting not using a click. That can definitely work too, but obviously depends how you're laying down your tracks, if that'll work. Sometimes you need a click just for a little break in a song, but if you recorded the track without a click, you don't have that. I've had numerous situations like this, and the way we've done it is by having the first instrument recorded (a scratch, maybe), just played naturally, whatever breaks should be in the song. Then after that's recorded, you go to the first part after a break, and record clicking drum sticks along to the tempo of that part (or add midi clicks if that's your thing) usually just four clicks for 4/4, 3 for 3/4, etc. Then nudge those four clicks back into the break so they become a four-count for where it comes in after the break. That way when the next person records, when a break comes they let their instrument ring out or stop, whatever the part is, then they hear "1 2 3 4" and they're in again. You can do the same thing for parts that ramp up, kind of "perform" the click track on top of the scratch/whatever the first track is, keep doing it until it's a perfect match. Then you've got a "mapped" click that's perfectly matched to the completely natural way they'd play it.
My first new personal album in four years - pay what you want - http://jessegimbel.bandcamp.com
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goose42
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Wow! Thanks for the quick responses - about a dozen good suggestions in just a couple of hours.
I bet what will ultimately work is a combination of all of these approaches, and I'm going to get started now by refining my map. It makes sense that if it's going to match their performance without a click, it's got to be right on bar-for-bar, and guesstimating with some kind of curve isn't going to cut it.
I like the idea of making a guide for some of the sections by having the drummer click his sticks at the tempo he feels, as long as we get that to be the right fit for the song. That helps get around having to conform to the computer, especially over the section where the tempo builds up slowly.
In the long run, it may be that practice with a metronome to lean against will help them tighten up the changes enough that the take for the record can be played free, or with just a prompt for tempo at the top. Definitely starting with drums and bass and another scratch track or two, and not afraid to edit if needed.
I'll let you know how it goes when we get it done!
I bet what will ultimately work is a combination of all of these approaches, and I'm going to get started now by refining my map. It makes sense that if it's going to match their performance without a click, it's got to be right on bar-for-bar, and guesstimating with some kind of curve isn't going to cut it.
I like the idea of making a guide for some of the sections by having the drummer click his sticks at the tempo he feels, as long as we get that to be the right fit for the song. That helps get around having to conform to the computer, especially over the section where the tempo builds up slowly.
In the long run, it may be that practice with a metronome to lean against will help them tighten up the changes enough that the take for the record can be played free, or with just a prompt for tempo at the top. Definitely starting with drums and bass and another scratch track or two, and not afraid to edit if needed.
I'll let you know how it goes when we get it done!
Cheers,
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
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Gregg Juke
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Cool, Goose... I can't remember if anyone mentioned doubling-up the tempo, but that's a really good trick so that everybody (especially the drummer) can hear it. If the tempo is 120, and you'd normally do quarter notes at that tempo, double it to 240 and have them play at half time to that.
Also, you may want to have the drummer make a pass with an egg-shaker or something first, so he's playing to something more organic that he himself generated.
GJ
Also, you may want to have the drummer make a pass with an egg-shaker or something first, so he's playing to something more organic that he himself generated.
GJ
FWIW, I've found that this type of gradual tempo build tends to feel more natural when the tempo steps up on the measure, or every other measure, rather than "through" the measure.
The drop is a different issue. If it was some meaningful proportion of the original tempo (like half-time, or maybe three quarters) it would likely be easier.
In the end you're going to half to either get them to practice it until they get it or let them go freeform for that section. If you really need it gridded for editing or something you could look in your DAW for the "fit tempo" or "fit improvisation" feature.
The drop is a different issue. If it was some meaningful proportion of the original tempo (like half-time, or maybe three quarters) it would likely be easier.
In the end you're going to half to either get them to practice it until they get it or let them go freeform for that section. If you really need it gridded for editing or something you could look in your DAW for the "fit tempo" or "fit improvisation" feature.
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Nick Sevilla
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goose42
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Quick update: I took two of the best performances without a click, and did some deeper analysis. I did a manual ID Beat (working in DP right now, and that's one big feature I miss from Pro Tools!) to check the tempo of each section of the song.
For the section where the tempo builds, I went bar-by-bar and learned that the buildup was more gradual than I thought. What i found out is that over 8 bars (not 4 as I originally thought, counting with my handy iPod tap tempo), the pattern is like this...
from slow section tempo,
buildup bar 1: +0.75 bpm
bar 2: + another 4 bpm
bar 3: + another 0.75 bpm
bar 4: + another 1.25 bpm
bar 5: + another 1.75 bpm
bar 6: + another 1.5 bpm
bar 7: + another 2 bpm
bar 8: + another 0.25 bpm
and then it's just .25 bpm back to the original tempo for the start of the last chorus.
Doesn't really fit any kind of predefined curve - starts a little steep, increases on a gentle - but increasingly steep - slope for most of the section, and the last quarter's increase is very very small. May still need some tweaking, but it goes to show that relying totally on something pre-made is going to make it difficult to get musical results for a style of music that needs groove, not grid.
I'll give this a try at their next practice, and see what we get. In the end, the thing that's going to make it sound the best is more practice, and it very well may be that the best take will be click-free. Whatever we end up doing, it won't be left at a sterile take that's technically correct. Engineering, not eye-gineering!
If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to share a Google Spreadsheet I made to perform the ID Beat functions... input Beats per Bar, Number of Bars, Frame Rate, and Start and End positions in SMPTE or 1/100/second, and it'll calculate the tempo of the selection for you. If you're working in a DAW that will give you the duration of the selection, I put in a field to enter that manually; you just have to change the cell reference in one formula. Also have a Varispeed for Pitch Adjustment spreadsheet.
For the section where the tempo builds, I went bar-by-bar and learned that the buildup was more gradual than I thought. What i found out is that over 8 bars (not 4 as I originally thought, counting with my handy iPod tap tempo), the pattern is like this...
from slow section tempo,
buildup bar 1: +0.75 bpm
bar 2: + another 4 bpm
bar 3: + another 0.75 bpm
bar 4: + another 1.25 bpm
bar 5: + another 1.75 bpm
bar 6: + another 1.5 bpm
bar 7: + another 2 bpm
bar 8: + another 0.25 bpm
and then it's just .25 bpm back to the original tempo for the start of the last chorus.
Doesn't really fit any kind of predefined curve - starts a little steep, increases on a gentle - but increasingly steep - slope for most of the section, and the last quarter's increase is very very small. May still need some tweaking, but it goes to show that relying totally on something pre-made is going to make it difficult to get musical results for a style of music that needs groove, not grid.
I'll give this a try at their next practice, and see what we get. In the end, the thing that's going to make it sound the best is more practice, and it very well may be that the best take will be click-free. Whatever we end up doing, it won't be left at a sterile take that's technically correct. Engineering, not eye-gineering!
If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to share a Google Spreadsheet I made to perform the ID Beat functions... input Beats per Bar, Number of Bars, Frame Rate, and Start and End positions in SMPTE or 1/100/second, and it'll calculate the tempo of the selection for you. If you're working in a DAW that will give you the duration of the selection, I put in a field to enter that manually; you just have to change the cell reference in one formula. Also have a Varispeed for Pitch Adjustment spreadsheet.
Cheers,
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
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Nick Sevilla
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Nice Goose24,
In Pro Tools, you press "command +i" and that gets you the bars dialogue.
Enter 1 for the first bar, then enter the number of bars, and voila. Instant tempo.
Don't forget to press undo, if you are only searching for the tempo and not changing the current bar numbers.
In Pro Tools, you press "command +i" and that gets you the bars dialogue.
Enter 1 for the first bar, then enter the number of bars, and voila. Instant tempo.
Don't forget to press undo, if you are only searching for the tempo and not changing the current bar numbers.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.
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goose42
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Still waiting to get to this track with the tempo changes. They've been rewriting parts, etc, and playing the song much faster, so my old calculations may be out the window.
We worked on a session last weekend, but they agree that they need more rehearsal. The problem at the core is that the drummer is the one who has the most work to do to learn the songs - it's hard for him to be the backbone of the beat when he's still having to look to the other guys for cues about where the changes are.
However, sitting in a room with me and a click and banging their heads against the wall for a day had them playing better than ever at practice this week, even without a click. They know the parts that much better. We've made clicks for the drummer to hear during practice, once they've really got the parts where they want them. A couple months of this, it'll be showtime!
The lesson I'm learning: when you've been a band for years, and you have money, going into the studio with nothing prepared can be good (Keith Richards' Life, talking about Some Girls). When you're in a hurry, but the plan is set from the beginning, you can make Double Nickels on the Dime.
When you have material sort of ready, and you need to make it fast, it's not going to work. Rarely does frustration in the studio a good record make (apparently "Living for the City" is a counterexample).
Nick, thanks for the tip. ID Beat is a good friend... wish I had it in the other DAWs I use (DP and Reaper). They all have unique and useful tools, but I'm getting tired of not keeping up with all the upgrades. Speaking of which, I think it's time to upgrade from PT 7.3 to 9.
We worked on a session last weekend, but they agree that they need more rehearsal. The problem at the core is that the drummer is the one who has the most work to do to learn the songs - it's hard for him to be the backbone of the beat when he's still having to look to the other guys for cues about where the changes are.
However, sitting in a room with me and a click and banging their heads against the wall for a day had them playing better than ever at practice this week, even without a click. They know the parts that much better. We've made clicks for the drummer to hear during practice, once they've really got the parts where they want them. A couple months of this, it'll be showtime!
The lesson I'm learning: when you've been a band for years, and you have money, going into the studio with nothing prepared can be good (Keith Richards' Life, talking about Some Girls). When you're in a hurry, but the plan is set from the beginning, you can make Double Nickels on the Dime.
When you have material sort of ready, and you need to make it fast, it's not going to work. Rarely does frustration in the studio a good record make (apparently "Living for the City" is a counterexample).
Nick, thanks for the tip. ID Beat is a good friend... wish I had it in the other DAWs I use (DP and Reaper). They all have unique and useful tools, but I'm getting tired of not keeping up with all the upgrades. Speaking of which, I think it's time to upgrade from PT 7.3 to 9.
Cheers,
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
Stephen "Goose" Trageser
bucketcitymobilesound.squarespace.com
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Nick Sevilla
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And then... still don't use a click to record it...goose42 wrote:Still waiting to get to this track with the tempo changes. They've been rewriting parts, etc, and playing the song much faster, so my old calculations may be out the window.
We worked on a session last weekend, but they agree that they need more rehearsal. The problem at the core is that the drummer is the one who has the most work to do to learn the songs - it's hard for him to be the backbone of the beat when he's still having to look to the other guys for cues about where the changes are.
However, sitting in a room with me and a click and banging their heads against the wall for a day had them playing better than ever at practice this week, even without a click. They know the parts that much better. We've made clicks for the drummer to hear during practice, once they've really got the parts where they want them. A couple months of this, it'll be showtime!
The lesson I'm learning: when you've been a band for years, and you have money, going into the studio with nothing prepared can be good (Keith Richards' Life, talking about Some Girls). When you're in a hurry, but the plan is set from the beginning, you can make Double Nickels on the Dime.
When you have material sort of ready, and you need to make it fast, it's not going to work. Rarely does frustration in the studio a good record make (apparently "Living for the City" is a counterexample).
Nick, thanks for the tip. ID Beat is a good friend... wish I had it in the other DAWs I use (DP and Reaper). They all have unique and useful tools, but I'm getting tired of not keeping up with all the upgrades. Speaking of which, I think it's time to upgrade from PT 7.3 to 9.
PT 9 is good times...
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.
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