Upright Piano and live vocal recording

recall · Post by **recall** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:14 pm

Hello,

Just wondering how you guys would approach this setup? I'm going to be recording a singer songwriter and the brief is to do it live. The artist is seasoned with 20+ records out and can definitely pull off a live vocal with the piano.

It is low budget but high level artistically, with a rural setting and a mobile setup.

We could have used a baby grand elsewhere but we decided to go with upright as this one sounds good and suits the low key nature of the album.

My main worry is getting decent vocal signal with minimised bleed, with the mics I have at hand.

Vocal:
Mics I have at my disposal for vocal are a Rode NTK, Shure SM86, AKG D190 and Oktava unmodded 219.
I'm inclined to go with the SM86 as it is hypercardioid but that could be an issue with the artist moving their head. The 219 is quite a 'wide' cardioid in my experience and the spill would be too much I think. The NTK I am not super familiar with and in my brief experience with it i've found it very bright but with nice low mids. Not sure about it's off axis behaviour. The D190 is a cool one from the 70's which works well with my sytek but probably would need a fair bit of eq to open up the top end of the vocal

Piano:
Matched pair of 012's micing the back of the piano. I've used this setup before and it works very well, and the piano acts as a barrier from vocal spillage.
I don't normally mic the upright from the front but would be great to hear your ideas on doing this

I'm planning on moving the piano into the room away from walls and experiment with some barriers such as duvets and packing blankets to help break up the wall reflections. I'm thinking of using sheets of foam to minimise off axis sound entering the vocal mic.

I'll probably set up some room mics just for something different to use in the mix such as a golden age ribbon, naiant omni's or some boundary mics.

Preamps will be as follows:

Sytek MP4, Sebatron VMP, TFPro P2 or Focusrite ISA 828
The ISA is connected via ADAT to my trusty 002 (!) and I tend to use it to accept line level signals fed from the Sytek or Sebatron.
I'll probably use the Sytek as my default setup and possibly use the VMP for my vocal if I need to warm the signal up a bit to compensate for the bright nature of the ISA.

In a way this is more challenging to me than the layered records I normally make because there are only two sources and they have to sound correct straight away and there is no room to conceal any mistakes with other overdubs. The key brief is for it to sound unadulterated and unforced.

There will be live folk styled viola on around half the songs which I will probably try an record in a room adjacent with doors open so that it is not totally isolated.

I would love to get your feedback as to how you would approach this setup.

Thanks,

Iwan

themagicmanmdt · Post by **themagicmanmdt** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:52 pm

So.....

If the artist is embracing not concealing their mistakes (if any!) with any overdubs...

why are you so concerned about bleed?

Was Ray Charles concerned about bleed?

Dylan?

And you're considering butting blankets and sheets of foam? How is that going to positively impact the SONICS?

Sorry to be coarse or harsh, but...why?

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:15 pm

I've had good results with a spaced pair on the back of the upright and a pair of PZMs taped inside the upper panel facing the hammers. Because if the positioning vocal bleed isn't an issue.
Audition vocal mics until you find one that has some good rejection and sounds good with the singer. There's no getting around bleed on the vocal so think of it as another piano mic and make sure the bleed sounds good.
Add a room mic and you should be golden.
Because of the bleed between piano and vocal you're best to think of them as one instrument. I'd advise editing takes instead of punching to fix mistakes. If you do have to make punch-ins have the singer play piano so the bleed doesn't change.

recall · Post by **recall** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:18 pm

I am concerned about bleed not in the sense of having a completely dry vocal but to control it best I can, its the ugly off axis response which is usually the problem.

I've recorded a 5 piece live band in a west walian cowshed without any separation so believe me I am all about capturing the essence, and dealing with the spill later, I'm just trying to work through the scenarios for this record in advance .

The foam was only ever going to be small pieces probably attached to the back and sides of the shockmount to shadow the sides of the mic.

The duvets will be used to break up reflections from what is a room in a normal house over looking the sea. My original post probably laboured the point of spill and over emphasised foam, blankets etc.

I guess what I'm looking to do is "finesse" what's spill/bleed there is.

so magicmanmdt what is your usual piano+voc setup? It may give me some ideas.

Thanks

Iwan

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:04 am

Unless the singer is yelling and/or playing the piano VERY quietly, you shouldn't have any trouble at all if you mic the piano from the back. You'll wind up with some piano in the vocal mic, but there shouldn't be any issues the other way around.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Nick Sevilla · Post by **Nick Sevilla** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:42 am

recall wrote:I am concerned about bleed not in the sense of having a completely dry vocal but to control it best I can, its the ugly off axis response which is usually the problem.

[SNIP]

I guess what I'm looking to do is "finesse" what's spill/bleed there is.

[SNIP]

Thanks

Iwan

Hi Iwan,

This controlling of the bleed is done "in situ"... in other words you have to do a few test recordings, and adjust the mic position until it is the way you want it.
Isolation in this case will probably only turn off the artist and the vibe.
EMBRACE that it is a live recording.
Get a few takes, and choose the best one.
If there are to be overdubs later on, try to keep the piano / vocal mics setup EXACTLY the same throughout the recording process. This means once you have that setup, you leave it, and use other mics for the overdubs. If there ever is a need to re-record the piano and vocal, you do it.

You will end up treating the piano and vocal AS ONE INSTRUMENT.

If you think like this you will be fine. If you try to think the vocal and piano are supposed to be separated, then you will have an EPIC FAIL on your hands.

Cheers

Dpower · Post by **Dpower** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:24 am

EMBRACE that it is a live recording.
Get a few takes, and choose the best one.
If there are to be overdubs later on, try to keep the piano / vocal mics setup EXACTLY the same throughout the recording process. This means once you have that setup, you leave it, and use other mics for the overdubs. If there ever is a need to re-record the piano and vocal, you do it.

You will end up treating the piano and vocal AS ONE INSTRUMENT.

If you think like this you will be fine. If you try to think the vocal and piano are supposed to be separated, then you will have an EPIC FAIL on your hands.

Cheers

Totally agree. The only thing I have to add is to make sure you really pay attention to the phase relationship between all the mics! Listen to it mono, get the phase (and level) balance that best suits the vocal and the piano together as a cohesive whole, because you'll have to live with it afterwards (spoken from experience).

recall · Post by **recall** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:41 am

Cheers guys.

Nick - you are correct thinking of it as "one sound" is the name of the game.

Cheers,

Iwan

telepathy · Post by **telepathy** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:36 pm

pretty much just seconding what everyone else has said. as long as everything's a keeper, it should be fine.

I love the SM7 for vocals for this job, but since you don't have one available, I'd say any cardioid mic, foam or something behind it if you want.

sometimes I'll foam up (or cover with cloth) the music desk of the upright, for a little more vocal isolation. the bleed is not usually a big deal, though.

das · Post by **das** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:03 pm

Ha, read this out of the corner of my eye, as i was micing our upright piano from the front with the top panel open.
decided to throw those shure 300's on the back and they sounded great!

themagicmanmdt · Post by **themagicmanmdt** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:02 pm

'finesse' is a very different story. i think i misunderstood. i saw the word 'blanket' which, to me, doesn't go well with when i think of the word 'piano'!

mic placement when i've done uprights varied completely depending on the piano. i've found that the back of a piano, just like micing underneath a grand, has quite a ton of 'tack' and 'attack' that i end up reaching for compression with. that being said, any mics that i might use on the soundboard side, *usually* are crept in, slightly compressed, for a closer, focused stereo spread. it's very much a 'face in the piano' sound.

then again, i'm a distance mic'er in comparison to many studio people and what are 'norms' in sound.

i've gotten my favorite upright piano sound for a solo recording with live voice doing an M/S with a rca77 (with EQ for sure) and an LDC sitting right above the top-off upright but slightly back towards the soundboard and not looking towards the hammers. sounds crazy, no? it was a more dark and ominous recording, but it was very very natural sounding, and got rid of that 'spaced pair' feel, which is nice for drums, but I didn't like the feeling of a 'hole' in the middle of the stereo field where vocals sit and the piano is more absent.

so, if you're going more hi-fi and not so dark (or if the piano needs a brighter touch), I'd say try a tight/focused decca tree feeling, with the top off of the upright, looking down at an angle at the back soundboard, but starting a bit higher up, if you've got a good sounding room, that is. let the L and R form a bit of a spaced pair for most of your hi-fi, then pick your vocal mic, see how that sits in as well, then add a colorful center mic (try dynamics!) to taste for what tonal range compliments the piano. i'd probably end up not panning the center mic 'center', maybe slightly off to one side (depending on the register that may need the most help).

and monkey with the angles of the mics quite a lot. when i would do grand pianos, any stereo pairs would usually be pointed somewhat in on each other to give less of an EXTREME stereo pan and, going for that natural approach, that is.

another time, i got a killer, beautiful lush sound with one overhead, one vocal mic and one low room mic. i started with the vocal sound and listened to the bleed and tone first. augmented what bleed i had with an overhead LDC, if I remember correctly, more over the bass register, all while monitoring in mono. got a very balanced sound from there. then, panned the OH a bit to see how the bleed/OH sounded as it went stereo. to add dimension and a final bit to the registers and flavor/emotion of the song, went for a low to the ground (i'd say a foot off the ground) soundboard side mic, panned opposite side of the mix but not full stereo L/R (checking phase relationships as it creeps in) and making the mix exciting from there. it was a great way to feel the piano react acoustically with the floor. used carpet or foam for reflections to taste. distance greatly varied from a foot off the SB to 10' away for sitting well with a future band overdub and the exciting stereo 'splash'.

thanks for asking! if you go the non-conventional route, or if the regular ways aren't exciting enough, perhaps try one of my mad scientist ways? either way, let us all know what you used and what worked?

Dominick Costanzo · Post by **Dominick Costanzo** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:06 am

http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous ... BmnYM5Q%3D

recall · Post by **recall** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:56 am

Hello,

I couldn't get the link above to work but I followed the posterous link in it to your page. Is the image from "She's your lover now"?

Sounds cool and weird but the piano sounds like it is in a different room, that is unless its just the piano bleed on the vocal mic?

I love the strangeness of Dylans mixes. I always try and get strange balances going on, but I don't think i've managed to sneak one as strange as the one above on to a record!

It's a good idea though. I'm going to go and search through the "temples of sound" book and see if there are any ideas there.

Thanks,

Iwan

Dominick Costanzo · Post by **Dominick Costanzo** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:01 am

Yep it's Bob Dylan. photo by Don Hunstein
Google search for images of "Bob Dylan piano"

vocal U67 - no windscreen or pop filter
piano - away from any walls, front lid on, top lid open, KM54 or KM64 about 6" into it somewhere around the right hand, no baffles, gobos or blankets.

The sound is probably everything bleeding into everything.
4 track, live band, live vocal
IIWII

recall · Post by **recall** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:03 pm

Hello,

This is the record that prompted my questions: http://www.euroschilds.com/ends/

We recorded it very simply, and treated it as 'audio verite'

Piano: Oktava 012 Cardiod >Sytek MP4>Metric Halo 2882
Vocal: Oktava 219>Sebatron VMP>TfPro P2 gentle opto comp for vocal peaks>2882
Violin: 219 and Tbone Ribbon> sytek MP4>2882 blended at mix to taste

There was no mixing really mainly balancing through the MIO Mixer.

We didn't use compression or bother with making the record super loud - just sequenced for gaps and relative levels between songs.

Thanks for all of your help and ideas.

Iwan

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Upright Piano and live vocal recording

Upright Piano and live vocal recording

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