4 Tracks Of Drums, Only Two Preamps & Compressors: WWYD

[donny]

I don't recommend "compressing the hell out of" anything until you really know what you're doing with compression. It's a good way to ruin tracks in a way that can't be un-ruined later.

This is true, but I'm going to play devils advocate for a second. Fucking things up is a great way to learn. If he (or anyone) does over compress something, they then have to a)figure out how to deal with it and b) are armed with the knowledge of where the "it's too fucked up" line is. Sometimes the added bonus is that the totally wrong fucked up thing is actually cool in the end.

On the other hand, you're never going to learn about compression until you put in your 10,000x compressing things. Y'know, recording into that Boss thingy and trying its compression after the fact on the tracks might be a great way to learn. Compression plugins and the digital compression on my digital mixer have really brought me a long way towards truly "getting it." While not sounding all that stunning at the same time. Now I dial in my analog comps better when tracking. But it's really hard to tell what the tracking comps are actually doing when you're recording yourself drumming all in one room. (My sitch)

What's stopping you from just trying this shit? You don't have a fuckton of complicated gear. You could probably run through every permutation of your setup in about 2 hours with a rented drummer.

All really good stuff. I especially want to see the OPs reaction to the line in bold.

this is good advice (in fact, i've noticed you usually have good advice)


screwed up sounding records are often more interesting to listen to than 'well-recorded' albums.

i will admit that i don't know how to use compression properly. and i learned the hard way that i don't like what compression does to individual elements in my own recordings.

but i love 'compressing the crap out of' my final mixes. it always sounds better and more 'right' to me. i found a setting on my compressor that i like and i just keep it there permanently and control how much it's compressing by the volume going into it. i just move the volume and listen until it sounds 'right'. i've messed around with other settings on the compressor and it never sounds quite right. but this one setting always seems to work for my music on this particular compressor.

i think we often lose sight of how doing things 'wrong' end up becoming a standard later on (like overdriving a tube amp).

[CBA713]

Word up to all of this. I know that threads like this can get redundant... I'm not an expert at any of these things, so it probably seems like child's play to some folks. I post on a few fuzzbox / effects forums, and I consider myself an expert in those categories, so when someone posts "What's the best way to set up a pedalboard?" or whatever, I usually say the same thing... JUST TRY IT OUT!

Here's my answer to not being able to try everything I want: LANDLADY. My time when she's not home (connected apartments) is very short and very valuable, so I just wanted to go in with some suggestions on what may be a good place to start as far as "common knowledge" with the items in my OP.

I'm actually looking at finding a small farmhouse or something out in the country where I can blast my drums and Big Muffs into the wee wee hours of the morning. Until then... just trying to streamline some shit.

I thank you all very sincerely for your input and reminders that the best way is to just TRY THE DAMN THING!

Thank you!

C

[donny]

yeh man ...

just go with your gut and embrace the spontaneous results ... and learn from the experience !

[chris harris]

Learn by fucking up the compression in the mix. Several advantages to doing it this way: 1. It's easier to hear what you're doing if you can keep playing back and tweaking as many times as you want without boring/tiring the drummer. 2. If you like how you fucked up, then you're finished. 3. If you don't, then just zero the controls and mix again.

I'm totally for learning by fucking up. I just think fucking up in the mix gives you more opportunity to learn than fucking up tracks on the way in.

[chris harris]

...unless you need to learn how shitty it is to tell a drummer that they need to retrack their parts becaus of something you fucked up.

[CBA713]

Haha.

Well, I'm the drummer for one of the records and my drummer is the drummer for the other record. So half and half as far as telling the drummer we gotta do it again.

This all sounds good... I AM a big fan of finding the exact sound you want before you even start recording, but I guess to learn this shit you gotta try everything!

Thanks again and keep it up!


C

[donny]

Learn by fucking up the compression in the mix. Several advantages to doing it this way: 1. It's easier to hear what you're doing if you can keep playing back and tweaking as many times as you want without boring/tiring the drummer. 2. If you like how you fucked up, then you're finished. 3. If you don't, then just zero the controls and mix again.

I'm totally for learning by fucking up. I just think fucking up in the mix gives you more opportunity to learn than fucking up tracks on the way in.

ah but that's no fun!

it's good advice, but if you're me, you end up stalling on your decisions and second-guessing yourself too much. fucking it up beforehand makes you really have to deal with it and gives it more character and encourages more spontaneous sound than carefully fucking it up later on.

also, if you're listening in headphones, hearing compression while you're playing makes you feel powerful !

(PS, I don't use compression when recording, only on the final mix ... but I had to try a lot of weird shit to develop this preference).

[doug deeper]

For that drum sound try one mic a few inches
Above the kick facing the side if the snare a few
Inches away. Distort it and compress it with
A high ish ratio and the fastest atack and release times.
That's how I do a lot of my drums and they sound
Similar.

[CBA713]

Is this the same doug deeper of Mid-Fi Electronics?


This all sounds good... thank again, dudes! I've got a lot of free time coming up that I will use to specifically test out these drum sounds. Mostly the point is to stop pussyfooting around. Word?


A question about compression: If I were to record drums into my BOSS BR-1600, let's say four tracks, one for kick, one for snare, and two overheads, would compressing those tracks after they've been recorded be roughly the same as compressing them straight in?

And when you say that I can record something straight in (to either the 424mkII or the BR-1600) and then experiment with compression afterwards, are you talking like putting a compressor in the effects loop and then, what, compress it while I bounce it to another track? With the cassette 4-track, I guess I'd have to compress it whilst bouncing, but like for the BR-1600, I could do that internally, right?

There's always a weird thing with me where I have a really hard time getting "when" to do things or like what kind of path a signal takes.

Thanks!

C

[Snarl 12/8]

I think the answer to your last post is "yes." You can compress on an aux track, you can compress on the way in, you can compress on each track after it's recorded, you can compress the mix of the drums, you can compress the mix of the whole song with the drums in it. Etc., etc. I usually do all of the above all the time. I hit an analog comp on the insert after the mic pre before the conversion to digital. Then, I might even hit a little digital compression after that, then it gets recorded, then I'll use digital compression (like what's on your boss, I'm assuming) on some of the individual tracks that I'm mixing, then I'll put compression on the whole drum mix, then I'll compress the whole mix. Now I'm talking about shaving off a db or three at each of these stages, usually. And I use the different compressors and compressing at different stages of the game for different purposes. I've started to get a glimmering of how you can use the compressor's attack and release characteristics (a real challenge on comps with no attack/release knobs) to shape the envelope of the sound, not just make it overall louder or softer, but to soften the attack, or accentuate it. And shorten or lengthen the release of the sound.

So, the analog comp going in is usually to prevent digital "overs" and keep my levels around -12db at the converters. It's also to add some grit and distortion while I still can do it analog, since my comps are all cheapo character pieces. Any digital comping before recording is usually if I'm going after some really compressed sound, and usually I actually skip this. Comping individual tracks after they've been recorded is usually for envelope shaping or fixing an inconsistent track (some hits too loud, some too quiet), but that almost never works for me. Comping the drum buss is usually when it starts to get "larger than life." And comping the whole mix is just because that usually sounds better to me than not, and my shit never gets mastered (or released.)

I didn't mean to imply before that your question was stupid. I've asked similar sorts of stuff because of the quirks of my room/setup/mentality make "just trying it" difficult sometimes. Just knowing why someone needs the info can make it easier to provide relevant info sometimes.

[vvv]

Lemme jes' say, Snarl gives great drum sounds!

I should know - he's alla drums at the THD link, below.

[CBA713]

Hey Snarl,

That all sounds excellent. There is a slight element of "ruining" the track of which I'm a bit paranoid, hence all the questions about WHEN to use compression and where. Your solution of trying a little bit at a time at each step is a good one.

I'll admit that I haven't done a lot of experimenting with compression, especially after the track is recorded. I used to record some pretty good sounding drums on my cassette 4-track with a little Joe Meek Three-Q (which is a preamp, EQ, and compression all in one little 1/2 rack unit)... but due to limitations wasn't really able to mess around with it after the track was recorded.

I've got a bit more semi-pro equipment now, and I don't plan on getting anything beyond what I currently have... so it's this or nothing! It seems though that "nothing" is often a good place to start, and if you get a good sound that way, then fuck it!

I have three glorious days off from work starting tomorrow in which time I will be setting up my drums and trying all kinds of combos with my 424mkII, BR-1600, and the analog compressors and preamps.

I'll let you know about the results for future reference or for others that are pondering similar questions.

Thanks again,

C

[doug deeper]

I am the same Doug!
Don't be afraid of compression when using it
As an effect. If you like how it sounds you're
Doing it right!

[CBA713]

Welp, I've done a little bit of experimenting when my friggin' landlady (whom I like a lot) has been gone.

Fairly pleased with the results I got from my 424 mkII. The bass drum sounds really huge in a way that the BR-1600 can't duplicate. I wonder why...? Seems like digital would capture the "real" sound better. Who knows.

Still have a lot to learn re: compression. I got a little Really Nice Compressor to experiment with. Have been doing some drum recording with just two overheads in an X above the kick... sounds pretty alright.

Thanks!

C

[vvv]

Sounds like there could be a good landlady story?



FWIW, i just added a second AT4040 on overheads (had been using various SDC's and dynamics) and I am amazed at how cool the faders-up mix on the OH's sounds, sans compression, EQ and close mic's.