ala Lanois (using stage monitors while recording)

[honkyjonk]

I just thought I'd post and ask to see if anyone else is doing this and if you all had any tips or tricks.

I was watching the LeNoise documentary on youtube and came to find out that Lanois is a fan of headphoneless recording, which is awesome because Lanois is awesome and it reaffirms what I already believe.

I've been recording vocals in front of my speakers for awhile now with the volume low and really prefer it to using headphones because pitch and dynamics seem easier for me to understand.

Anyway, I'd like to implement a monitor of some sort, (wedge? I don't know) in the upstairs room in order to do the same thing that I'm doing downstairs in front of my control room monitors so I don't have to use headphones.

I know the phase trick which entails recording another track of nothing while maintaining the same physical position, and then flipping the phase to attempt to cancel out the speaker bleed. (This is a hassle and not necessarily feasible when only using 8 tracks to begin with)

I know that directional mics are my friend.

But I'm looking for any other nuggets of advice concerning how to minimize bleed/phase from the monitor, if anybody can think of any, like perhaps discussion concerning differences in speaker topology? I don't know if it would really make a difference what I monitor on, but then again, maybe I'm overlooking something.

This would be in a fairly small, but A-frame shaped room. Am I courting the impossible?

[accordion squeezist]

Just do it. Bleed can be your friend. Don't worry about it.
If you need to eliminate it completely use a Shure SM7 or any dynamic mic that sounds good.

[honkyjonk]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about that these days. In a live setting, people getting in each other's mics can make it sound more alive for sure.

But I've yet to find the situation where bleed from a speaker in a vocal overdub + echo/reverb sounds better than not having that bleed. But I don't know . . .

[Marc Alan Goodman]

Just make sure that the bleed sounds good.

If the speaker you're using is distorted or has a strange frequency response you'll hear it.

If you've got spare studio monitors that's the way to go rather than a stage wedge or something. Recording in the control room works well too. At least then you know that the bleed will sound its best.

[jhharvest]

Here's some tips I've used: A figure of 8 mics generally have the deadest null, if you need more rejection. Remember that this is a plane - not just a spot below the mic. Therefore you can even have the monitor at ear level if you want. You can use mechanical filter (i.e. a baffle) between the monitor and the mic while not blocking the path to the singer's ear. You can strategically block 1st reflections from behind the singer.

Studio monitors are a good idea. I've used our spare Genelecs for studio live in TV shoots. Usually the artists have loved the sound ("The best monitoring ever!").

[Nick Sevilla]

Usually, you would do a complete take of whatever was being played in the room at the time, until it is a great take.

Then you could add additional overdubs. Overdubs which do NOT replace anything from the original performance.

Then, you will absolutely not have to worry about the bleed.

As soon as you start editing.. then go to the hell that is editing with bleed.

Refer to my first sentence, for tips on correcting any "editing" you may think of doing.

Cheers

[ashcat_lt]

Use two speakers. Mono monitor mix - same signal to both speakers. Invert polarity of one speaker. Place the mic in the sweet spot between the speakers adjusting for maximum cancellation. Your ears will be back out of the sweet spot. It can be a bit weird, but folks have reported good results.

[JGriffin]

Here's some tips I've used: A figure of 8 mics generally have the deadest null, if you need more rejection. Remember that this is a plane - not just a spot below the mic. Therefore you can even have the monitor at ear level if you want.

I seem to recall the Beatles doing this early on, with a big speaker cabinet they called The White Elephant.

[tonewoods]

Here's some tips I've used: A figure of 8 mics generally have the deadest null, if you need more rejection. Remember that this is a plane - not just a spot below the mic. Therefore you can even have the monitor at ear level if you want.

I seem to recall the Beatles doing this early on, with a big speaker cabinet they called The White Elephant.

Yeah, but they used a U47, which seems like it would pick up the Elephant in spades, even if properly positioned ...

I love using a JBL Eon on a stand aimed at the null on a good ribbon, like a BK-11...
Blast the Eon, and start incrementally moving the mic till the bleed on the faders is at it's lowest level, and lock the mic in place.
Sometimes it can be quite "off" from where you think it "should" be...

This is basically how I do all my vocal ODs, and singers--once they try it out--love this method...
Better communication is a huge plus, and it can be like a good gig, with better vocal performances resulting...

Horn section ODs really benefit from this technique too...

If you're trying to do the vox live, an Eon on the floor aimed at the null of a good-rejecting cardioid ribbon like a Beyer M260 or M500 is a really good way to go...

[JGriffin]

Here's some tips I've used: A figure of 8 mics generally have the deadest null, if you need more rejection. Remember that this is a plane - not just a spot below the mic. Therefore you can even have the monitor at ear level if you want.

I seem to recall the Beatles doing this early on, with a big speaker cabinet they called The White Elephant.

Yeah, but they used a U47, which seems like it would pick up the Elephant in spades, even if properly positioned ...

They also used a U48, which could be set to figure-eight. I'd imagine they used U48s for this type of tracking. The "Recording the Beatles" book mentions both 47s and 48s in their discussion of the White Elephant vocal overdub situation.

[IDQ]

This is not nearly as technical as some of the other solutions, but have you tried hypercardioid mics at all? Over the years, EV has made a bunch, both dynamic and condenser. At reasonable monitoring levels, with the mic obviously pointing away from the monitors and roughly between them, the bleed is pretty minimal. Then again, I'm a total amateur, so I may not be after the degree of precision that you are.

[drumsound]

I seem to recall one of the "big time" dudes saying his trick when recording vocals in the control room was to turn down the overheads and room mics. because those were the things that would get noticed if they bled.

[roygbiv]

hey, drumsound, that is a very interesting point, I've been wanting to do more of this "live vocal recording", so far we've only been screwing around, but the "passion" in the takes are much better doing it live.

Why do you think overheads and room mics are the best to turn down - is it basically anything that is high frequency like cymbals? or is it bleed that contains the sharp transient of percussion instruments?

(I ask because I'm wondering if the same logic can be applied to other instruments/sounds when doing this)

[Snarl 12/8]

It makes sense to me. It's way easier to add ambiance to a recording than to take it off. Any mic that's not tight to the source is gonna add a lot of room tone.

[drumsound]

hey, drumsound, that is a very interesting point, I've been wanting to do more of this "live vocal recording", so far we've only been screwing around, but the "passion" in the takes are much better doing it live.

Why do you think overheads and room mics are the best to turn down - is it basically anything that is high frequency like cymbals? or is it bleed that contains the sharp transient of percussion instruments?

(I ask because I'm wondering if the same logic can be applied to other instruments/sounds when doing this)

The high end bleeds easily, was why said engineer tracked that way in the control room. I've had decent success tracking vocals in the control room. In the live room a hypercardiod (M88 or 421) with good rejection has been helpful as well.