Recording without a Console?

[kbucks]

Hello Everyone,

I?ve got some thoughts to share with anyone who?s interested. I record at home with an Allen and Heath mixwiz and Aurora 8. It?s a modest setup, but it sounds pretty good and I?m happy with it. However,
I?ve been toying with the idea of bypassing the console and recording straight into the a/d utilizing my higher end outboard preamps (Syteks, Universal Audio, etc). It seems like recording into my Sytek, then into the console and out through its direct outs adds some gain stages and circuitry that could be avoided. I never use the console?s eqs, its really just a way to monitor what I?m recording at the time. I tend to apply eq, compression and other effects in the box. A real console costs a fortune and for my needs (and the long run), it seems like a better investment to build up an arsenal of really nice modular preamps and shoot for really high quality/pure recording on a smaller, slower and more affordable level. But, is it possible to monitor recordings without a console? Since I've always monitored what I'm playing "live" through the console, I've never had to deal with digital latency caused by monitoring through the DAW (which is certainly an advantage of my current setup). Are there devices that route signals without applying gain stages or other unnecessary things? Even patch bays have limitations in terms of signal splitting between a monitoring console and DAW. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Thanks,

K

[jgimbel]

Right now I'm using a Firestudio Tube, and before that it was a Firestudio Project (which I still sometimes daisy chain with the Tube). The monitoring for that is done with a software mixer outside of the DAW, you're monitoring right off the inputs of the interface, just you can adjust the volume and panning of what you're hearing while playing, as well as the stereo mix that's playing back if you're doing overdubs.

Next week I'm buying a Lynx Aurora 16 which I'll be fully switching over to at some point down the road, and I believe it'd work kind of similarly, I'll have two channels of the DA going to a headphone amp, so I'll hear what's going in. I believe there's a software mixer the same way, I've kind of been under the impression that's generally how it works with separate converters. At least I THINK this is the case and really hope it is, but it seems to make sense. If I'm wrong someone please point it out because it's a pretty important part of switching over to this. Sure wish these converters had a headphone output! But I'd think this would be how you'd monitor in your case too, what you're talking about moving to is how I've been doing it and has been without issues, unless you need to be able to play through effects plugins in real time, in which case the latency thing is a problem, but I don't ever do that except reverb, and I just use it as a pre-fader send and pull the fader down so you just adjust the send to adjust the reverb you're hearing.

[T-rex]

Yes, you should be able to use direct monitoring to go from your pre right into your interface and then back to your console for monitoring. When I had a bunch of outboard pres I always ran them directly into my RME and then back out to my console. So I could monitor each channel individually, adjust monitor volume and headphone sends and all that stuff, but bypass any additional circuitry on the way in. You should be able to do that with the Aurora and you get the best of both worlds; minimal signal path in, easy monitoring control out.

[kbucks]

Thanks for your replies, with my current setup, I have analog outs 1 and 2 of the Lynx going into the board (channels 15 and 16). That's how I listen to what my DAW is producing. I think my in the box eqs and compressors are better than any outboard I have now, otherwise, I could send more tracks back to the console, probably a few buses anyway. I have to say, though, I really like monitoring through the console. Direct outs are pre-fader and effects, so I can change monitoring volumes and add effects while leaving the signal alone. It just feels more natural to hear yourself directly through the board...I've never even tried monitoring through the DAW. I'm thinking my work around will be to dust off the old patchbay, half-normal the mic pres to the DAW and patch the pres into channels of the console, that way the DAW is receiving signal directly from the pres and I can still listen "live." All this shit is so expensive, you have to pick your battles and it seems like, with the exception of A/D convertors, high end mics and pres will never become obsolete. In fact, vintage is even more valued.

[Matt C.]

I'm thinking my work around will be to dust off the old patchbay, half-normal the mic pres to the DAW and patch the pres into channels of the console

yeah i would try this first. the input impedances of the converter and the console are probably high enough that multing the signal to both places won't cause any loading problems.

[jgimbel]

Digging this one up, I'm in a bind that seems relevant to this thread. I did get the Aurora 16, but in the months I've had it I've yet to find a way to use them without buying a console/mixer, which I cannot do. When using my Firestudio Tube (which I'm still doing since I can't find a way to use the Aurora) I use the Presonus software mixer to adjust levels and pan what is going to the computer before it's in the DAW, so there's no latency. The Lynx does have a software mixer which supposedly allows direct monitoring but doesn't have panning, though I can't figure out how to get the direct monitoring to work anyway. But even if I could, it doesn't make sense to me to take a step up to the these converters but being forced to only monitor in mono from now on just because the software mixer doesn't have panning.

I can't monitor through my DAW without latency - but that's how it's always been with my Firestudio/Firestudio Tube and I have no need to monitor through effects or any of that.

It seems the only solution would be to buy a console (which as I mentioned I can't do, I don't have the space nor the money, nor was I intending to change everything about what I'm doing by upgrading my converters), split off the outputs of the preamps and have one set go to the console so I can pan and adjust levels of what's going into the Lynx, and the other set of signals going into the Lynx and being recorded. I've already saved up more money than I've ever spent on anything to get the converters, I can't afford to also buy a console just to be able to hear it. Does anyone have a solution? I'm thinking I may have made a $3,000 mistake.

[Jim Williams]

Even if you track without a console, you will need one to monitor. Otherwise it's wires all over hell trying to fudge stuff together, a PITA. Don't know about you, but I don't need another PITA here.

Consoles are cheap, really cheap. I got my Soundcraft Delta consoles for a song. For $3000 I could have bought 1/2 dozen of them.

One I use for location recording in which I use the mic preamps and insert send/return to track. Works like a champ if no one pays for a rack of outboard pre's to track through. Most can't tell the difference anyway.

The act makes far more difference than the mic preamps ever did.

[Bro Shark]

Dangerous D-Box.

[jgimbel]

Bro Shark, The D-Box wouldn't help here - the issue isn't hearing what's played back, it's monitoring before hitting the DAW. I did finally figure out how to do this, but can't use this while also listening to tracks play back in my DAW like I can with the Presonus. So it's either ONLY listen to what's going in, or ONLY listen to what's playing back along with a direct signal that has a lot of latency (monitoring through the software).

Jim, thanks, that's a big help. I just wanted to upgrade my converters, I don't have space for a console. I'm a little concerned that if I go to just buy a cheap console (two words which seem like they shouldn't fit together) then it's going to be a whole new can of worms and I'll go from having both converters I can't understand AND a console I can't understand that I also couldn't afford and don't have room for. It's looking like getting these converters might have been a mistake and I should sell them to try to use the money for other upgrades.

[kbucks]

I'm looking to get an Aurora 16, let me know if you wanna sell it. I've got an Aurora 8 FW.

[jgimbel]

kbucks, I sent you a message.

Jim, my concern with getting a mixer/console is that I'm not even sure exactly what I'd need. I guess I'd need something with 16 channels so each of the channels could be monitored, as well as two more channels to be my stereo outputs FROM the converters? And then I'd also need a way to make sure I can control the headphone volume (do consoles even usually have headphone outs?) and the mixer's output separately since I'm in a one room. Though I guess I could have the main outs go into a monitor controller with headphone outs.

I guess the alternative is to sell, and either use the money toward other gear I need, or get something like the MOTU 24 i/o or HD192 (not sure about the differences between them yet), though I've heard less than wonderful things about the MOTU stuff, I'm sure it'd be a step down from the Lynx.

This is a pretty tough position to be in. Buy a mixer and cabling to hook it up and try to find space for it, and change everything about the way I'm working now, or sell the Lynx. Headache.

[jgimbel]

UPDATE: Sweetwater tech support didn't know what to do, but Lynx tech support did. They also weren't surprised about the situation since there seems to be no documentation anywhere that explains what to do clearly, and I haven't found any forums where it's been explained either.

If anyone else is in the same position though, looking to monitor live signals without latency (direct from the inputs) while also hearing playback, here is what he had me do:

1. In the remote mixer, go to the Digital i/o tab. For "Analog Out" select "remote".

2. In the Analog i/o tab, go to the "Source A" tab, in the middle of the right side of the remote mixer. Control + click on the little button above the first (leftmost) bottom fader, and click L-Slot Input > LSlot In 1. Holding control makes it so it automatically sets all the other inputs in order (fader 1 to LSlot In 1, fader 2 to LSlot In 2, etc.)

3. Go to the "Output 1" tab. Do the same as step 2, except make them Analog Ins (control + click on the first little button, Analog Input > Analog In 1). Repeat the same on the "Output 2" tab.

What this is now set up for is that the source is the LSlot inputs (which are the same as the analog inputs, really), and then the analog inputs are routed to the outputs. However by default all the outputs are muted, so if you want to hear one of the live signals, you go to the Output 1 tab, unmute that specific fader, and do the same in the Output 2 tab. That will allow monitoring the live signal in mono. For a stereo source, you'd have to unmute the left channel in Output 1, and the right channel in Output 2. This is annoying, because it means if you want to pan something a bit to the left you have to go to the right channel's output tab and turn it down, rather than actually having just a normal panning thing. I can see this getting annoying in the future when setting up full band live mixes, but if it functions then I guess that's all I can ask for for now. They said they're working on a better situation for panning but this is how it is for now.

To monitor playback from your DAW at the same time, you'd just set your outputs in the DAW to a pair of Lynx outputs (7 and 8 for example) and then unmute channel 7 in the "Output 1" tab and unmute channel 8 in the "Output 2" tab.

I know this is a long post, just hoping it will help someone like me who thought they'd have to either buy a console just to monitor or sell their converters.

[The Scum]

Jesse,

First, what DAW are you using?

And how do your converters interface with it? Firewire? Something else? Particularly for the Lynx - they have a lot of different interface boards.

Does your DAW have a "direct monitoring" feature? I'm using an ancient version of Cubase, and it provides for direct monitoring of inputs, while interfacing with the software mixer inside Cubase. I can monitor inputs, in synch with outputs, and use the Cubase mixer for cues and working mixes.

Direct monitoring is not through that DAW, exactly. It effectively adds a software "y-cable" on each input - the incoming audio gets split in two - one stream gets sent up the latency-ridden path to the DAW, while the other gets sent straight to the outputs. A well integrated solution lets you change the levels & routing of the cut-through path with a mixer - often controlled from the DAW, but implemented in the interface hardware.

I'm using RME hardware, and I mostly ignore the mixer in the RME driver.

It's functional, but not exactly hands-on. Direct monitoring also means I can't apply plugins to the inputs, and be able to hear them while recording. Not a showstopper for me.

So does your DAW & hardware have an equivalent option? Would an upgrade there solve the issue without any extra hardware? Or a different interfacing method ( IE: RME Digiface & lightpipe?).

For monitoring and cue mixing purposes, adding a console would give you a lot of flexibility...even an old Mackie 1604 would get the job done (and yes, it's got a headphone out, and you can use the 2-track return for monitoring the DAW stereo out). I'd expect to spend more getting it hooked up, than on the mixer itself.

[llmonty]

Yes, can you tell us about your software and connectivity? I have 2 Aurora 16s with Lynx AES cards. While I have a board, I recently changed my set up for monitoring/playback, bypassing the board and using PT to set up cue mixes. It has been awesome. For this function I really only need my headphone amp and monitors. I can listen to a 2 mix, and either 4 different monitor mixes or a 2 mix and 4 different "more me" sends. This uses an in expensive SM Audio headphone amp. Can monitor plugins and/or hardware inserts.

I don't use the lynx software, nor did I really use the RME software when I used to use a Multiface with no console. I use the mixer window in PT 9 and have latency low enough that i don't even think about it.

Happy to talk more about it and your needs/set up.

[jgimbel]

I was just trying to spread the information on how to do direct monitoring from the Aurora for those who have had as much trouble finding information on it as I have.

I'm running Cubase 5, connecting via Firewire (as I've been doing with my Presonus interfaces for years). Cubase does have monitoring through the software, but I've never been able to use it without at the very least enough latency to make it too distracting for me to use or to expect my clients to deal with. I've never needed to monitor through plugins either, except reverb on vocals, which I just use a pre-fader send to on a channel with the fader all the way down.

So all is good. The setup described in my previous post allows direct (pre-DAW) monitoring along with monitoring playback. I do now have a much better understanding of how a console can be used along with a DAW, so maybe down the road I'll go that route rather than solely using my outboard compression and whatnot.

llmonty, very cool, so basically you're doing what I mentioned with monitoring through software, just you haven't had issues with latency, right? My computer was built for me for recording, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's good enough to be getting low enough latency for it not to be an issue.

Thanks for your guys help, I should be good for now. Glad I'm not going to have to give up the converters, forward is the direction I've been aiming for!