A few GOBO questions
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A few GOBO questions
A little background...My room is about 24'x35' 9'walls peak to a center, maybe 14'-15'. I like to record loud rock bands. Stuff sounds pretty good, but there is a lot of "air" on drums and vocal overdubs. I'm wanting to build a few GOBOs and I've looked around and studied what other guys are doing. I have Roxul rockwool and lots of building supplies laying around. Now I'm seeking advice.
I want to provide some amp isolation. Should I make Some thick, fluffy panels or should I have something like a plywood sandwich with fluffies on each side? I don't require extreme isolation, I just want to keep a bad guitar from ruining a great drum take.
I'm thinking of making some panels to put around the drums and knock down some of the "air". Would I do better with thick and fluffy or should I make a sandwich? And how high would YOU make them?
What about dimensions? Lumber is in even lengths, ie. 4', 8', 10', etc. My rockwool is 2'x4'. Do you guys build an oversize frame or trim the panels? I want cheap, durable, and somewhat pretty.
I'll also take ideas about instrument placement. I don't have a pic handy, but the drums sit in about the middle of the room, monitor wedges sit in front of the kick and face away from the drums, the musicians stand in front of the wedges and look at the drummer, the amps line the wall behind the musicians and face the drums.
I want to provide some amp isolation. Should I make Some thick, fluffy panels or should I have something like a plywood sandwich with fluffies on each side? I don't require extreme isolation, I just want to keep a bad guitar from ruining a great drum take.
I'm thinking of making some panels to put around the drums and knock down some of the "air". Would I do better with thick and fluffy or should I make a sandwich? And how high would YOU make them?
What about dimensions? Lumber is in even lengths, ie. 4', 8', 10', etc. My rockwool is 2'x4'. Do you guys build an oversize frame or trim the panels? I want cheap, durable, and somewhat pretty.
I'll also take ideas about instrument placement. I don't have a pic handy, but the drums sit in about the middle of the room, monitor wedges sit in front of the kick and face away from the drums, the musicians stand in front of the wedges and look at the drummer, the amps line the wall behind the musicians and face the drums.
- jhbrandt
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Kevin,
Sounds like a great place.
Amp Isolation: Ideally requires an isolation room or booth. Gobos will help a little, but not for a loud guitar where low frequency guitar notes get into the drums. Depends on your situation, micing techniques, and budget.
Vocals: I recommend complete gobo with a window around vocals for tracking purposes.. then erase that track and overdub the 'keeper' vocals alone in the main room surrounded by gobos to catch any reflections and room sounds/reverb. This is ideally done BEHIND the singer since most vocal mics have a cardiod pattern and do not pick up much from the rear.
Another note: Remember, "If it's not Baroque... Don't fix it."
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a great place.
Amp Isolation: Ideally requires an isolation room or booth. Gobos will help a little, but not for a loud guitar where low frequency guitar notes get into the drums. Depends on your situation, micing techniques, and budget.
Vocals: I recommend complete gobo with a window around vocals for tracking purposes.. then erase that track and overdub the 'keeper' vocals alone in the main room surrounded by gobos to catch any reflections and room sounds/reverb. This is ideally done BEHIND the singer since most vocal mics have a cardiod pattern and do not pick up much from the rear.
Another note: Remember, "If it's not Baroque... Don't fix it."
Cheers,
John
John H. Brandt - Recording Studio, Performance Hall & Architectural Acoustics Consultants
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I had originally contemplated dividing up my space into tracking rooms and a control room. I had so many people urge me to keep a big, open room and tell me that a booth would do more harm than good.
While I was building this building I was using the garage for rehearsals. I had a similar setup with the musicians facing the drummer and using amps as their backline. But I only had a small drum rug, 8' plywood ceilings, a metal garage door behind the drummer and a 56 Ford behind the amps. I recorded some rehearsals and got decent results. I had bleed in the drum OH and vocal mic, but it was pretty minimal. The bleed was mostly guitar from a Fender Twin, but I also had a large fan blowing. I can hear it and I know what it is, but it almost sounds like amp noise.
While I was building this building I was using the garage for rehearsals. I had a similar setup with the musicians facing the drummer and using amps as their backline. But I only had a small drum rug, 8' plywood ceilings, a metal garage door behind the drummer and a 56 Ford behind the amps. I recorded some rehearsals and got decent results. I had bleed in the drum OH and vocal mic, but it was pretty minimal. The bleed was mostly guitar from a Fender Twin, but I also had a large fan blowing. I can hear it and I know what it is, but it almost sounds like amp noise.
- jhbrandt
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hahah.. Great stuff!
Cheers,
John
Cheers,
John
John H. Brandt - Recording Studio, Performance Hall & Architectural Acoustics Consultants
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"Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"
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- losthighway
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I'm no studio designer, but I feel like with 24' x 35' you could get something like 6' x 8' going that wouldn't take too much away from your live room. You could do some really heavy treatment and absorption to make it a really flat, dead little space, with the exception of maybe a nice window. It could be a sport for singers to get keeper takes live with the band, or even a spot for a bass amp if you get the response flat enough with some bass trapping.
I'm kind of projecting here because I'm in the spit balling stage of what might be a new studio build in my back yard a couple years from now.
I'm kind of projecting here because I'm in the spit balling stage of what might be a new studio build in my back yard a couple years from now.
- jhbrandt
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Lost,
Well, not in my book. Sorry.
You can't get keeper takes in a room of less than 1500 cubic feet and 6x8x8 would only get you 384. Not near enough to get the resonances low enough to filter out.. even with treatment. Not recommended.
We would always put the singer in a booth when tracking the whole band - just to keep them in time. A singer needs complete focus and preparation to perform at their MAX.. So when the tracking was done, we'd bring the vocalist back into the 'big room' to cut the final vocals. - That way, also, the producer and coach can focus Totally on that track.
That is most of the reason that many 'studios' with booths do not have a 'great' vocal sound. - if the engineer or producer has them doit in the booth.
You can't get all of that 'boxy' sound out of the track.
Cheers,
John
Well, not in my book. Sorry.
You can't get keeper takes in a room of less than 1500 cubic feet and 6x8x8 would only get you 384. Not near enough to get the resonances low enough to filter out.. even with treatment. Not recommended.
We would always put the singer in a booth when tracking the whole band - just to keep them in time. A singer needs complete focus and preparation to perform at their MAX.. So when the tracking was done, we'd bring the vocalist back into the 'big room' to cut the final vocals. - That way, also, the producer and coach can focus Totally on that track.
That is most of the reason that many 'studios' with booths do not have a 'great' vocal sound. - if the engineer or producer has them doit in the booth.
You can't get all of that 'boxy' sound out of the track.
Cheers,
John
John H. Brandt - Recording Studio, Performance Hall & Architectural Acoustics Consultants
http://www.jhbrandt.net
"Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"
http://www.jhbrandt.net
"Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"
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I did consider a small booth for a couple of reasons...Such as providing some isolation for a loud guitar ( I hadn't really considered the Bass guitar ). I had also thought about making it really dead. I figured that I might could get a flat vocal and add ambiance. I was concerned about the small size and the ability to get "good" takes. Another thought I had was to use a booth to store my guitars and make it climate controlled. I don't heat and cool my studio to the degree you would if it were truly a "home" studio. It's just too big...too much expense.
The GOBO route seems best for me right now. I once cut live with the guitar and bass going through the headphones only. I still had vocals to deal with in the drum mics.
The GOBO route seems best for me right now. I once cut live with the guitar and bass going through the headphones only. I still had vocals to deal with in the drum mics.
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Rules are lame. Keep 'em coming though... I love trying new ideas that some people think "can't" be done.A.David.MacKinnon wrote:These kind of statements get my back up. I know what you're talking about but disagree. You can get keeper takes in almost any situation and set-up.jhbrandt wrote: You can't get keeper takes in a room of less than 1500 cubic feet.
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- jhbrandt
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Ok. I get that.
I should have stated that differently.
You can get keeper takes ANYWHERE if you are GOOD and really know what you are doing. But the average person wanting to build a home studio and build a 'booth' for vocals has the wrong Idea. If you NEED a booth.. you need a booth. But MOST small studios DO NOT need a booth. They record one-track-at-a-time and should use a better room with good treatment.. even if that is the control room.
Too many folks will take 20 square meters and slice it up into 2 or 3 rooms, well tiny booths, and try to mix in one and use the other two for recording. "Don't do it." is all that I am saying. Use the whole room.
The OP asked what is recommended for his situation and it seems that he is having success with this one large room so in form, I recommended that he use only gobos IN HIS SITUATION. Then I went on to talk about booths. It is a fact that too many people try to copy what they saw on an MTV video and they don't realize that most of these are 'sets'.
I'm just trying to steer folks in the right direction. It's not like I have anything to prove or sell. My apologies that I wasn't clearer and that it made some of you angry.
Cheers,
John
PS. Rules ARE made to be broken. I am constantly amazed at the talent of a great many engineers and producers that do brilliant work in some very poor rooms. A good engineer can do wonders anywhere, anytime... They don't need a great room to do great work.. but Good Rooms sure-as-hell make doing that great work a LOT easier and faster.
I should have stated that differently.
You can get keeper takes ANYWHERE if you are GOOD and really know what you are doing. But the average person wanting to build a home studio and build a 'booth' for vocals has the wrong Idea. If you NEED a booth.. you need a booth. But MOST small studios DO NOT need a booth. They record one-track-at-a-time and should use a better room with good treatment.. even if that is the control room.
Too many folks will take 20 square meters and slice it up into 2 or 3 rooms, well tiny booths, and try to mix in one and use the other two for recording. "Don't do it." is all that I am saying. Use the whole room.
The OP asked what is recommended for his situation and it seems that he is having success with this one large room so in form, I recommended that he use only gobos IN HIS SITUATION. Then I went on to talk about booths. It is a fact that too many people try to copy what they saw on an MTV video and they don't realize that most of these are 'sets'.
I'm just trying to steer folks in the right direction. It's not like I have anything to prove or sell. My apologies that I wasn't clearer and that it made some of you angry.
Cheers,
John
PS. Rules ARE made to be broken. I am constantly amazed at the talent of a great many engineers and producers that do brilliant work in some very poor rooms. A good engineer can do wonders anywhere, anytime... They don't need a great room to do great work.. but Good Rooms sure-as-hell make doing that great work a LOT easier and faster.
John H. Brandt - Recording Studio, Performance Hall & Architectural Acoustics Consultants
http://www.jhbrandt.net
"Twenty thousand dollars worth of Snap-On tools does not make you a Professional Diesel Mechanic"
http://www.jhbrandt.net
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- digitaldrummer
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I also let the singer do it with the band, then overdub the keeper if there is too much bleed.
I recently constructed some gobos using 1x6 (cheap whitewood from Lowes/Home Depot). I created a lightweight frame around a 4x6 center of OC703. so that was 6 2'x4' sheets of 2" thick OC703. then I used some 2x4 pieces to make some horizontal legs to attach casters (and to keep it from tipping over). they seem to work pretty well and move easily.
I posted pix in another thread:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... 7&start=60
Mike
I recently constructed some gobos using 1x6 (cheap whitewood from Lowes/Home Depot). I created a lightweight frame around a 4x6 center of OC703. so that was 6 2'x4' sheets of 2" thick OC703. then I used some 2x4 pieces to make some horizontal legs to attach casters (and to keep it from tipping over). they seem to work pretty well and move easily.
I posted pix in another thread:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... 7&start=60
Mike
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Some great info on Slat Absorber construction:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... +absorbers
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=3&t=1363
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=1&t=9008
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... +absorbers
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/a ... s.htm#helm
(use the "Corrected" Helmholz excel spreadsheet from the 2nd John Sayers link - NOT the excel spreadsheet listed in the SAE link directly above).
Lots to take in! I'll be building a few slat gobos soon for drum tracking - likely based towards a broadband thing than the "narrow Q" designs mentioned in some of the above threads.
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... +absorbers
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=3&t=1363
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=1&t=9008
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... +absorbers
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/a ... s.htm#helm
(use the "Corrected" Helmholz excel spreadsheet from the 2nd John Sayers link - NOT the excel spreadsheet listed in the SAE link directly above).
Lots to take in! I'll be building a few slat gobos soon for drum tracking - likely based towards a broadband thing than the "narrow Q" designs mentioned in some of the above threads.
Randy V.
Audio-Dude / Musician / PC Guru / Crazy Guy
Audio-Dude / Musician / PC Guru / Crazy Guy
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Those are pretty nice looking. How well do they work? They look like they could work really well around a drum kit or a vocalist. I'll be using Roxul and it's not as rigid as 703. How did you get your cloth covering to look nice? I'll leave ratty stapled edges if I have to, but I would prefer that it look neat and clean.digitaldrummer wrote:I also let the singer do it with the band, then overdub the keeper if there is too much bleed.
I recently constructed some gobos using 1x6 (cheap whitewood from Lowes/Home Depot). I created a lightweight frame around a 4x6 center of OC703. so that was 6 2'x4' sheets of 2" thick OC703. then I used some 2x4 pieces to make some horizontal legs to attach casters (and to keep it from tipping over). they seem to work pretty well and move easily.
I posted pix in another thread:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... 7&start=60
Mike
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Cutting up the room was exactly what I had planned! I'm glad that I didn't. The open plan works well for me for a couple of reasons.jhbrandt wrote:Too many folks will take 20 square meters and slice it up into 2 or 3 rooms, well tiny booths, and try to mix in one and use the other two for recording. "Don't do it." is all that I am saying. Use the whole room.
The OP asked what is recommended for his situation and it seems that he is having success with this one large room so in form, I recommended that he use only gobos IN HIS SITUATION. Then I went on to talk about booths.
1) I could easily repurpose this into a garage, workshop, etc.
2) Not dividing it up saves money because there is no construction to do!
3) I built this primarily as a rehearsal space. I'm not recording enough currently to have it specifically for recording.
Leaving it open gives me options.
So...for a GOBO around amps? Does a sandwich of insulation/plywood/insulation sound like a good idea?
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So last year I built these gobo / baffle things (which were totally just me sort of spit-balling something together). these were 10" deep, with a closed back, an air gap MDF wall, insulation, fabric cover.
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... ht=#656922
I just tracked some drums / bass live. i had the bass amp mic'ed. i had the kit mic'ed with close mics, LDC as OH, and room mics. There is MINIMAL bleed in the room mics (and that is primarily just sub rumble that got rolled off anyway).
the room was set up like this shitty stick figure diagram dictates:
[] (bass amp
======|===== (gobo things i built)
* (room mics) *
o O
0 O O
\o/ (crappy drums/drummer representation)
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... ht=#656922
I just tracked some drums / bass live. i had the bass amp mic'ed. i had the kit mic'ed with close mics, LDC as OH, and room mics. There is MINIMAL bleed in the room mics (and that is primarily just sub rumble that got rolled off anyway).
the room was set up like this shitty stick figure diagram dictates:
[] (bass amp
======|===== (gobo things i built)
* (room mics) *
o O
0 O O
\o/ (crappy drums/drummer representation)
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