tips needed for realistic percussion grooves w/ sampling

[mixmasterdsr]

OK, this is a pretty broad topic but one that I think everyone might benefit from. I'm wondering if there are any tips and tricks out there for creating interesting looped grooves in a sampler, a la Underworld, Boards of Canada - basically artists that don't use run of the mill sampled drum kits but choose to roll their own, cutting up percussive hits / phrases in a .wav editor and loading them into your sampler to loop, create envelopes, filters, etc. in order to make dynamic/interesting/punchy percussion tracks. I play guitar and bass and most of my instrumentation is live, however I don't have a drummer and in order to track my stuff with any amount of integrity, I find this method more creative then programming what I'd call 'beatbox beats' for lack of a better term - basically using drum patches from any number of software or hardware synths. This is something that I used to do but that I got bored of quickly as the results always sound like a drum-machine.
I've been doing this for awhile now and find that it takes a lot of practise to get it right, and am just wondering if anyone else does this and if there are any good ideas out there. I know BOC sample their own drum kit/percussion instruments and layer things in the sampler in order to get a groove, which is then looped with variation - that seems like the way to go, but of course it's time consuming and one doesn't always get good shit the first pass. A lot of this depends on the old-skool skillz, mic placement, good instruments, using pre's to warm things up/saturate/distort to taste... as well as getting really geeky into the inner-workings of your sampling device, all of which I'm well underway towards trying to master...
For instance, on my latest project I sampled an egg shaker for a bar with emphasis on hitting the beat early (swing of sorts) as well as an alternate take where it's on the beat - I then fine tuned the loop in the sampler to co-incide with the click in Cubase. I was then able to play guitar to the percussion sample with variation and it was a revalation for me to be able to build up a song in this manner instead of having the click force me to play in a certian way. This way the percussion sounds organic AND stays in time in the project so I can quantize things later IF I decide to. I realize this is probably a common method, but I seriously had to figure it out for myself - despite all the reading I do online I have never run into adequate step by step methods for doing this type of thing - I just had to stumble on it for myself.

I'm just wondering if there's any good ideas out there...anyway, is anyone out there doing this kind of thing or thinking about it?

[EasyGo]

I dunno, it's a fairly broad question. I think the nuance of the groove depends a lot on the hi hat sound and groove. I find recording live hi hats playing interesting patterns is a good place to start. This, to me, adds a legitimacy to the drum sound that sounds more human and less like a step sequencer going in a circle.

I like to chop the patterns up into a few basic loops, then start screwing around moving the hits around in time to get a more human, less quantized sound. I also like to begin the loop in odd places (like the fourth 16th note of the measure, for instance), just to find out what will happen. Sometimes I'll put the 'and' hits on a separate track from the 1 2 3 4s, and diddle around with the timing/level/pitch/accenting of the 'ands' vs. the 1 2 3 4s.

Broad question. Record your own samples. And turn those goddamn hi hats down!

[kcrusher]

This page may give you some tips...

http://www.bombastique.com/drums.html

[joel hamilton]

Bombastique,

That is a great read!

[dustdude]

This is something I'm dealing with too. So far been cutting and pasting samples, hits using Digital Performer. Also have a Boss phrase sampler to loop grooves, and I may dump that into the computer to chop it up further.

Sometimes this method can sound a bit stiff and different than a real drummer, though works good in looped oriented music like hip-hop and electronica.

For creating realistic percussion grooves, alot of peeps use the Akai MPC series: 2000xl, 4000, 1000, etc...

[trashy]

This page may give you some tips...

http://www.bombastique.com/drums.html

That should be in the magazine... seriously.

[pandafresh]

well. first i think avoiding "samplers" is important. midi is no good for drums patterns. [or use some kind of external box to send out midi commans, almost anything midi wise has more groove then a sampler.. alesis mmt-8 comes to mind]
every sound and hit should be meesed with.. dynamics is beyond important.
lots of people these days are banging on various kitchen ware into their computers. then cutting the crap out of it.. the people you menion dont just throw down some groove either. i mean. it should easly take 2 to 4 days to get a solid drum loop. [4-8 bars]
so cut up some sound, bounce it, recut it, bounce it, fuk it up, recut with fuked up ness. bounce, reedit, reedit, redit.
and its all about your "HH"
research "Riow Arai" to hear examples of beat cutting.
BOC and autechre are pretty simple. take a beat. time stretch like crazy crazy~~~~ and cut it da fuk up.

-trevor

[percussion boy]

well. first i think avoiding "samplers" is important. midi is no good for drums patterns.

Huhn? Sampling a couple bars of a nice groove and looping it -- like mixmasterdsr did with the egg shaker -- is a GREAT way to get grooves. Like he said, you get the natural feel AND the steadiness of tempo.

Can also get a nice groove going with any MIDI sequencer that's got high resolution, using it to trigger a sampler, drum box, or whatever. Of course, the original sequence has to be played/edited to have a good feel -- not stiff or erratic. GIGO.

I have an MMT8 and there's nothing magic about its "groove," except that some folks say it's a little more accurate timewise than other ancient machines.

If you know what makes a beat feel good, there are a lot of ways technically to make that happen. And yeah, it takes time to get it exactly right. It's an art, you know?

[mixmasterdsr]

Thanks for all the replies. I do however disagree that what BOC and Autechre do being 'easy' as just 'timestretching and fuk'n it up'. I happen to know that what both these bands do is not easy or straight-forward, as evidenced by how unique their sounds are to this day - in other words, other artists' try to emulate their styles a lot, and fail. That's because these people are serious artists with decades of dedication to the craft, who have finely tuned ears and process that's been refined over the course of years and years. BOC probably spend more time getting the kick and snare right for one track then the time it takes me to write and record an entire song. And it shows! Take a look at Sound On Sound's last months' issue to see some of the screen-shots from Brown + Booth's (autechre) Max MSP environments and fuckin' weep.

Also, using a sampler for this is the most unlimiting way to do all of it, save for having a real drummer, which is another form of limitation.. (if I wanted just a traditional rock band sound, I'd join a frikkin' rock band, right??) especially if you have a nice rack mount with lots of features. I have a few drum machines, grooveboxes, etc. and I've outgrown them all as I've gotten deeper into my sampler over the years. Just midi it to a sequencer with great timing, and there's nothing I can't accomplish - if it sounds lame, it's my own fault. And sometimes is does, which is why I am asking if anyone knows some shit.

[percussion boy]

What are a couple tracks (BOC or whatever) that sound like what you wish you were doing?

[mixmasterdsr]

Um, I'm perfectly happy to be doing my own thing, I don't want to copy anyone else. But for the record, all the drum grooves on Music Has the Right to Children are incredible... That level of craft is what I aspire to, for sure.

[mixmasterdsr]

Also, I'm pretty convinced that nothing but actually getting a drum kit in my house and making my own loops is really going to satisfy...

[Jesse Skeens]

I agree about BOC. They have simple rhythms but they are very effective. If anything its harder to make simpe sound complete than use bunch of crazy editing and stuttering like some IDM bands do.

[pandafresh]

i guess i disagree to much to partake in this discussion.

-trevor

[mixmasterdsr]

That's too bad then, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing - that can be valuable in fact. I think maybe the drum machine approach CAN work - in fact Squarepusher I think does this more or less - but he's quite a sophisticated programmer, and he also has a jazz drumming style, which is more him. I just want simple drum parts more or less, but really interestingly recorded parts that sound human. So I do think that maybe we are just interested in different things. But I think your opinion is valid as mine - sorry if you feel shut down on!