Cymbal Glare

[8th_note]

I just finished recording a doom/metal band and I had a heck of a time getting the drum sound I wanted. It's hard enough to make the drums audible with this kind of music (and still have it sound "big") but the cymbals made my job almost impossible.

The drummer uses heavy cymbals and he hits them hard. Alot. I miced the toms from the top side and the tom mics were picking up so much cymbal that I couldn't turn them up very much. I tried eq'ing down the cymbals but then I lost the attack of the drum. The overheads were very heavy on cymbals and not much help with this problem.

There's a brief reference to this problem in TapeOp a couple issues ago but the answer seemed to be to use thiinner cymbals which was not an option in this case.

When I listen to certain examples of the metalcore genre (Quicksand, Isis, Helmet) the toms are very prominent in the mix and the cymbals are very quiet. Do they use triggers or some other technical means to solve this problem?

Besides micing the toms from the bottom (which I'll try next time), or using triggers (which I don't want to buy), have you guys run into this and how do you deal with it?

[chetatkinsdiet]

Without triggers or using tons of mics....either of which might be used in a large studio or pro band with an unlimited budget to record....it's a tough situation.
Drummers just need to learn that there are two elements to playing. Live and studio. Both are different. Just like the guitarist might do certain things in a live situation, the studio is no different. If they give you that crap about "their style" or "their sound"...that's horseshit. A real musician would be able to alter his/her playing to fit the situation. Hey, not everyone's cut out to be a studio musician, as it takes another set of skills. Just like some bands sound better in the studio vs. live and vice versa.
If you/them, don't have a smaller set of thinner cymbals to use, then you gotta either try smaller sticks, or tell the drummer to lay off the cymbals and hit the toms harder. See if you can raise the cymbals higher off the drums. This will give some seperation between them and the drums.
Really, it's a bad situation you're in.
later,
m

[FormulaReed]

I like to use Sound Replacer. When I mic the kit, I mic it for transient response, it sounds nasty when your tracking but once the sample is in place it works great.

You might try strip silence but that can be dicey.

Good Luck,

Reed

[matt250321]

In a similar thread someone suggested that when you are tracking the drums, give the drummer mostly the Overheads in his cans. Give him very little kick and snare. This way he will really have to smack his drums nice and hard but lay back on the cymbals to get the sounds he wants. One of the more important aspects of getting a good drum sound is a balanced player. This should help even things out without getting in a huge argument. His ears should do all the convincing...hopefully...

[theistheman]

In a similar thread someone suggested that when you are tracking the drums, give the drummer mostly the Overheads in his cans. Give him very little kick and snare. This way he will really have to smack his drums nice and hard but lay back on the cymbals to get the sounds he wants. One of the more important aspects of getting a good drum sound is a balanced player. This should help even things out without getting in a huge argument. His ears should do all the convincing...hopefully...

this seems to be pretty good advice.

If it were me, I would probably do some sort of gating on the tom mics.

[joel hamilton]

If it is already printed with a ton of cymbal, you kind of need to find some toms...

How are they in the OH? How about the room mic/s?

This is why proper placement and gain structure and mic choice (good off axis rejection!!!!!!!) is critical. It isnt the bands fault for playing a certain way, even if you dont really like the style.

Beyond good placement/choice/gain structure, there is also the option of saying: " Hey, killer, wanna chill on the crash ride a little bit so I can make the toms bigger?"

If not, okay. I always try!!

[gillentine]

Man that is one the most frustrating aspects of recording the drum kit! My worst enemy is the friggin' hi hat on the snare mic. And these drummers...what do you do about these guys. Most of the bands I record are not pro but they think by coming into a good studio they're record is going to be the next OK Computer but to their dismay it's not. It's hard on my soul because I want to make them sound good for my name is on the record but you can only polish a terd so much. I had one guy come in that had no felt pads on his cymbal stands, just cymbal on metal. ugh! I had to basically reconstruct his whole kit with parts from the house kits but still he would play the cymbals so hard. Luckily I've had a few choice drummers who knew shat they were doing and that was a great time and the recordings show it. Hey, the tape don't lie. Sorry I don't have any more advice than the other posts but what they say are valid points. I just neede to vent. Thanks.

[Lee Knight]

It isnt the bands fault for playing a certain way, even if you dont really like the style.

That's true but...

...a lot of guys hit their cymbals that way because it works live. The guitars are blaring through a Crate stack with an Ibanez, then a Metal Zone stomp box in front. I guess I'd smack the shit out of my cymbals too. But now they're in a different environment and they're doing things that the players they look up to don't... like smack the crap out of their cymbals. You don't need to do that now. That's why I give 'em OH's and kick only in the phones. It's not an evil trick but a way to give him a fast education in the needed balance. If you bring any snare or toms into the phones it's feeding them a WRONG picture of the balance. It's sabotaging what the drummer is actually trying to achieve. OH's and kick only in the phones, it works.