Quantegy update 1/30/05

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You cant look to indie rockers and kids with $7K project budgets to support a tape manufacturing industry because from where Im standing THOSE are the people that are actually making records.

Dave,

I think you can. It's about someone, somewhere cohesively teaching a method to integrate tape in the process. Real studios should be booked non-stop right now for basic tracks- what we have are a bunch of 'real studios' denying the reality right now and they are certainly not trying to cater to this new crowd.

The consumer market is way bigger than the major labels have ever been to a business like Quantegy or the equipment manufacturers. What we need is people at the upper level beginning to take a newer, effective marketing angle.

If budgets are so prohibitive to use the 'good stuff', then a studios need to reach out and begin delineating why their equipment may be superior and yield superior results to a $100 (TapeOp) microphone. Studios are adapting too slowly to be of any use here. We freelancers need to lead the charge.

My question is this, how long will it take the kid with Home Studio XL to ever book time in a real studio? Frankly, it'll take 5-10 years just for him to learn how to engineer, then if he ever connects the dots, then he may see why listening to a set of tuned Augspurger monitors is worth it. Again, studio managers to reach out and begin educating these kids or they are doomed.

[beefjerkey]

I think tape will come back. atr, and studer still make machines. I just cant wait till some company starts to make an analog machine with some super nice a/d converters so you can go from the analog machine strait to a cpu. The best of both worlds. track analog mix digi, track analog mix analog. think of the possibilities. R

[Judas Jetski]

I gotta weigh in with the people who say that the tape market is by no means a wash. It's a boutique market waiting to happen. Think (as I believe I mentioned elsewhere) Edelbrock Carburetors, a company which is going strong on "obsolete" technology. Or Holley. Or Demon, a company which didn't even exist until well after carburetion was supposedly dead.

I just had a guy master (digitally) the firstfruits from my 8-track r2r setup. I may be saying this about my own work, but I find the results verrry satisfying. And not only satisfying, but in some ways superior to the results I got from digital (half the project was analog, the other half ADAT). Sure, I'm just an amateur hack, but I've been doing this for a while and I have to say that there are some things for which analog is just better.

The guy I had master the thing was born & bred on 2" r2r and says he doesn't miss it a bit--not for his own work, and not for his own personal recording. He feels "liberated" from the linear nature of tape. I find that oddly amusing, since I find myself "liberated" by the linear nature of tape. Keeps me focused on tight song structure and performance quality. I like that. I find it much more organic.

Obviously, the days when the whole world spun on a reel are over. That's a good thing, because it means that there are more tools out there for the people who are looking for them. And the fact that there are a whole bunch of people sticking to their guns on the analog side of things is good as well, because again it means there is one more tool out there to be used.

This really is a question of economics. It's a question of whether our markets have become so numbers-oriented that the market no longer serves the needs of the people it supposedly serves. If things have gotten so bloated that the principle of supply and demand have been short-circuted, we're all in trouble.

Some people seem to treat the free market as though it were some kind of god, bestowing life, wealth, and prosperity to the deserving, and enforcing the survival of the fittest. What a bunch of crap. The "free market" is just that: a market.

The bottom line is this: as long as analog equipment is available and viable, there's going to be a market for it, because it works well. It's what rock'n'roll was founded on, and as such has shaped a niche for itself. We like the sounds we like because they originated on tape. If a computer can make similar sounds, that's good. But to say that it must by necessity supercede tape doesn't follow.

To the extent that there are people with enough vision to see the benefits of scaled-back production and perhaps a little (gasp!) restraint, there is no good reason why analog tape should go the way of the mastodon. It's just a question of balancing supply, demand, and cost. The extent to which people with that kind of vision and capital are enabled to operate is directly related to the success and health of our economic order.

BTW, mastodon actually means nipple-tooth.

[Judas Jetski]

Oh, one more thing and I'll shut up, at least for a little while.

It seems to me that half the problem is that we are living in an era when artist development is all but nonexistent. The music world is drowning in a sea of half-baked, quickie crap. There's so much junk out there that people may not immediately recognize quality music when they hear it. Or good technology. Or subtlety. It seems to me that at times like this patience is a particularly valuable asset.

Okay, I'm done.

[rcj]

Ecnamo is so right.

From a business perspective tape will of course never occupy the place it once did in studios. Compared to protools - working with tape has to be seen objectively as hassle. (particularly for those whom have grown up in an exclusively PT generation) It's expensive both in time and money and really isn't as versitile as tools. For people who rely on recording to pay the bills these are serious cons against it as a practical medium.

For the rest of us though - who can afford to ignore the economic realities of our times and hide away a little of each paycheck for reels and maintenance etc - tape can still be workable.
I'm proud of my sentimental attachment to the medium. Bring on the restrictions of 8 tracks and no noise reduction. Whoever thought that applying ideas of economic rationalism to the creation of art/music was a good approach anyway. I take comfort from the fact that I'm just starting out on a medium that most people are deserting. Maybe it'll help me get somewhere different. I'll buy PT when Y2K finally hits and everybody moves onto the next thing.

[Knights Who Say Neve]

Some people seem to treat the free market as though it were some kind of god, bestowing life, wealth, and prosperity to the deserving, and enforcing the survival of the fittest.

Ther're called "Republicans".

[soundguy]

You cant look to indie rockers and kids with $7K project budgets to support a tape manufacturing industry because from where Im standing THOSE are the people that are actually making records.

Dave,

I think you can.

Jeff- I think that you *should* look to this group for growth, but for all the points you outlined in your post, you currently *cant*. I think we are on the same page in the end, but trying to get into a discussion about why people should be using quality, especially on this board, always turns into some assheaded "have vs. have not" pissing match. For what people spend on a single mic pre, most folks here can walk down to the local studio, explain they are totally broke kids and probably record all their rhtym tracks in a real place on real gear and then take it home to screw with with their computer. Once you have a real drum sound you can pile a bunch of shit on top of it and you still stand a chance at a cool sounding record, and by going to a real studio to track drums for a day or two, you can still slave over it for months at home, so its still "yours" and you can do it for probably $500 in any city in america. Some lessons you need to learn for yourself I guess.

dave

[rpowell]

I think tape will come back. atr, and studer still make machines. I just cant wait till some company starts to make an analog machine with some super nice a/d converters so you can go from the analog machine strait to a cpu. The best of both worlds. track analog mix digi, track analog mix analog. think of the possibilities. R

ATR doesn't "make" machines, they refurbish and customize them.

Studer does make (or sell) the A827 Gold 2" machine, for a list price of $58,000. They recently offered 'em for $29,000 in a sale. Things can't look that good in the short term if they have to slash prices like that to get a handful of them to move. It would take a lot of low budget recordings to recoup your investment on one of these bad boys, not to mention the console and peripheral gear one would need to decently equip a studio. The economics of the small market dictate the equipment except for a handful of purists who insist on what they believe in. It will take bigger recording budgets for the clients and the perceived value of analog for it to make any type of comeback, IMO. Still of the opinion it's gonna hold it's own, but not a growth market.

With all the flavors of ADDA out there, if I'm gonna spend $50-ish k on a new 2" machine, the integration of ADDA into my 2" is the least of my concerns. 24 channels of outboard Apogee, Prism, Mytek or Lavry will be just be a relatively small expense to add to the mix.

RP

[gabriel]

People used to think analog modular synthesizers were dead too, and now we have what, at least 5 or 6 different companies making new modulars?

-gabriel

[Derrick]

Tape will be around for a while! I like to be a realist and all, but there will always be a large group of people who knows and wants what is "better". They will always spend a little, even a lot more for it. Look at guitarists spending $75 on guitar cables. People aren't just going to ignore the roots of their favorite recording's sound. We could have had this same discussion about tube amps and tube preamps in the late 70s/early 80s. We will always run our mouths about how it came to be and there will always be a kid who understands and gets it. Along with the digital domain, there will always be a lot of people who feel tape is better for their needs as well. Vinyl is a comparison, but the vacuum tube is a much better parallel. It all but died and came back strong enough to be apart of out lives along side of the engineering and developing of new processors. It's still here. Why? People are and will continue to be interested in it's sound characteristics. It will not dominate as a medium though like tubes do for guitar amps. Things have changed. Digital is #1. But at least tape should continue. That's all I ask for.

[Girl Toes]

Update from US Recording Media:

UPDATE Feb 1, 2005: The tape is slowly rolling in and we're slowly starting to fill our shelves. We got a truckload of tape today including 2" GP9, 1/4" 457, and 407. Quantegy is slowly ramping production again. Also, there definitely will, we're told, be a new studio quality open reel audio tape manufacturer in Pennsylvania starting in May or early June and maybe even as early as April... Hang in there! They're going to be making very good tape starting with a +6 OL tape which almost everybody should be able to use.

[nacho459]

I went into Ametron (the place in LA where I buy tape) and all they had in 2" was four reels of BASF 911 from 1996 for $130 each.

[soundguy]

Im not sure why Im continuing this debate but boredom is the spawn of worse things I suppose. What everyone seems to be missing in all these discussions in various places is that anyone with a machine shop can make a carburetor to sell to a boutique market. All you really need is a hunk of metal and a lathe and a guy and you are good to go. You dont sell alot, but you also dont need to make alot either, you can make them on a order to order basis if you wanted. Tape, like vaccum tubes, is a heavy industrial process with big minimums. Tape factory doesnt start up to make 18 rolls of tape to fill an order. Its all well to be a boutique market and all but when you look at the boutique market that tube elecroincs is (shitload larger than analogue tape market from the way Im thinking) it isnt big enough to encourage an american tube manufacturer to start a heavy industrial manufacturing business. Tape niche market is great and its awesome that now there will be apparently two american companies making the stuff and dont want to come off as a guy on the internet with nothing better to do but complain about everything because its so chic to be a crab, but it seems that the tape market is getting smaller, not bigger and at some point there will be an unbalance between the minimums the factories need to make, and meeting minumums and making no profit. It is looking at this model which should knock everyone off of the victory cloud they are currently riding on, sure things are great this year but eventually if things continue the way they are going, they are not going to be great. Encourage your computer friends to mix to tape. Encourage your clients to mix to tape. Everyone here talks about tape machines like a fantasy, they arent expensive, they arent hard to learn and by supporting the cause you wind up with this sound that people spend $$$$ on trying to emulate with plugs or even more expensive hardware (fatso is like so much more than a tape deck, duh). Get a tape deck, support the cause now that the hysteria is apparrently over there should be little risk. You need to sell a lot of tape in order to justify making it, you can celebrate us as a boutique market all you want but there is a bottom line at which point it becomes impossible and its irresponsible at this point to overlook that fact.

dave

[Judas Jetski]

Dave sez:

You need to sell a lot of tape in order to justify making it, you can celebrate us as a boutique market all you want but there is a bottom line at which point it becomes impossible and its irresponsible at this point to overlook that fact.

You have a point, although I'm not sure what you mean by irresponsible. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see it. Unless you're saying that we shouldn't just give tape "lip service" but actually *use* the stuff. Or that we shouldn't be encouraging newcomers into joining our little Mylar fetish party just because it's "cool" or whatever.

I'm sure you're right about production minimums and whatnot. But bear in mind, I'm a guy who's running 1/4" 8-track to record old school punk rock. I'm willing to put up with a whole bunch of crap to get what many people would consider mediocre results, because for me this is a labor of love. To me, any hassle is all part of the DIY process, and the means justify the end. If I was still paying for a $53,000 2" deck, I'd probably feel a whole lot different.

But I will readily admit that I'm a two bit hack. I'm just thinking the two-bit hack market (though small) is probably pretty steady. I'm flogging a dead horse, there. The question is whether a formerly mondo-scale industry can scale back enough to meet the needs of a small but steady market. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

Here's what I'm wondering: if tape became absolutely unavailable, how many of us (who could afford to) would stop recording?

Is anyone talking about how this whole debate is really rooted in the fact that the production-line mentality of the culture industry is undercutting individual artistic integrity?

BTW, there's a whole lot more to developing a viable carb than "a hunk of metal, a lathe, and a guy." Like anything else worthwhile, these things take years of development, financing, and foresight. But, um, whatever. I gotta go record something.

[radiationroom]

{SNIP} Its all well to be a boutique market and all but when you look at the boutique market that tube elecroincs is (shitload larger than analogue tape market from the way Im thinking) it isnt big enough to encourage an american tube manufacturer to start a heavy industrial manufacturing business. {SNIP}

That arguement about not being big enough to encourage an "American {FILL IN THE BLANK} manufacturer" doesn't hold water. Everything these daze is being outsourced to Asia, including my old job manufacturing computerized medical automation hardware. Take a look at your pants and your shirt. Unless you are wearing some premium brand, I'd bet your clothes all came from Haiti or Bangledesh or China or Indonesia........