look, i'm not too hip on the super high end "audiophile" movement myself. but there are a lot of people out there that make a shitload of money. these people have always existed, and will always exist, history will show you that. they have to spend their money on SOMETHING. you think it's gonna be some $25 cable? i don't. it's also their right. i'm not gonna go busting moral cop on them because i wouldn't do it myself. this country, for better or worse, is base on freedoms, one of which is freedom of choice.
you like $6500 cables? buy 'em.
you can't stand "stupid immoral motherfuckers" who buy $6500 cables? don't buy 'em and don't associate yourself with them.
at the end of the day, it's still their, and your, choice.
You weren't kidding!
Re: You weren't kidding!
I'm with Dwelle, I actually don't care what Kitty Rockafeller does with her trust fund. It's her money, not my business. But if you think that some of these billion dollar a day philanthropist's got their fortune by NOT stepping on necks, milking and screwing their employees and just being naughty in general, then I'll have to quote what Al Pacino said to Diane Keaton in The Godfather; "Who's being naive now?"
There's my capitalist rant. That's all for me. Back to the board!
There's my capitalist rant. That's all for me. Back to the board!
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thunderboy
- buyin' a studio
- Posts: 993
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:53 am
- Location: ROC, NY, USA
Re: You weren't kidding!
wow. what have I done...
Actually, this turned into a pretty interesting thread. Intelligent discussion with no real mudslinging - that's why I love this board.
My personal take on the $6,500 question is this: the thing that gets me is not that people buy these things, or even so much that these things exist. A lot of the audiophile mentality seems to be centered on tweaking a system into "perfection". I am sure that a $29,000 turntable sounds f-ing amazing. I am sure that high-quality cables do make some measurable, noticeable improvement in system performance. What gets me is that achieving "perfect" sound is a Holy Grail. That is, you ain't never gonna find it cuz it don't exist.
Suppose you were able to assemble a system wherein each component was 100% transparent. You have power that is dead-nuts stable and clean.
What about the atmosphere? What air pressure, humidity, temperature, etc will provide 100% transparency?
What about gravitational fluctuations caused by the moon throwing your tone arm just so very slightly out of balance?
Nobody's ears are transparent, either.
For the folks who can afford this stuff, good for them. For the folks who covet this stuff...it almost seems like audiophilia is a disease and these companies have the cure - for a price. Of course, it's not really a cure because there will always be room for improvement, and even when it seems like there isn't, someone will invent a problem to fix with some piece of milled brass or whatnot.
I'm babbling and not saying much that someone here hasn't already, so I'll end with this question: If the most expensive microphone on the planet is, what, $10,000 or so, what the hell makes a 6 FOOT PAIR OF SPEAKER CABLES worth $6,500? I would really like to know!
jt
Actually, this turned into a pretty interesting thread. Intelligent discussion with no real mudslinging - that's why I love this board.
My personal take on the $6,500 question is this: the thing that gets me is not that people buy these things, or even so much that these things exist. A lot of the audiophile mentality seems to be centered on tweaking a system into "perfection". I am sure that a $29,000 turntable sounds f-ing amazing. I am sure that high-quality cables do make some measurable, noticeable improvement in system performance. What gets me is that achieving "perfect" sound is a Holy Grail. That is, you ain't never gonna find it cuz it don't exist.
Suppose you were able to assemble a system wherein each component was 100% transparent. You have power that is dead-nuts stable and clean.
What about the atmosphere? What air pressure, humidity, temperature, etc will provide 100% transparency?
What about gravitational fluctuations caused by the moon throwing your tone arm just so very slightly out of balance?
Nobody's ears are transparent, either.
For the folks who can afford this stuff, good for them. For the folks who covet this stuff...it almost seems like audiophilia is a disease and these companies have the cure - for a price. Of course, it's not really a cure because there will always be room for improvement, and even when it seems like there isn't, someone will invent a problem to fix with some piece of milled brass or whatnot.
I'm babbling and not saying much that someone here hasn't already, so I'll end with this question: If the most expensive microphone on the planet is, what, $10,000 or so, what the hell makes a 6 FOOT PAIR OF SPEAKER CABLES worth $6,500? I would really like to know!
jt
"most toreadors worth a damn are circumcized."
- Discs of Tron
- Discs of Tron
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dwelle
- buyin' a studio
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Re: You weren't kidding!
For the folks who can afford this stuff, good for them. For the folks who covet this stuff...it almost seems like audiophilia is a disease and these companies have the cure - for a price.
well put. i know a guy who has a home theatre that probably cost about $250k. he is very successful in a very good job, makes tons of dough. he's probably about sixty now and LOVES LOVES LOVES movies. he can afford components and shit that i would completely balk at, but....
he know's what all of it does, he's compared this against that, AND he designed and set up the system he's got. he totally enjoys every step of the deal the same way we enjoy recording and playing music.
the point being, he doesn't covet this stuff at all. these are the tools he uses to make his "down" time everything that it might possibly be. to you or i, he may just be blowing money. however, given what he gets out of it, i think he's getting a hell of a return on investment.
that's the difference, i suppose, between the audiophile we would bash here and the guy who's in it for the right reasons. there's always someone in it for the right reason, right?.......
well put. i know a guy who has a home theatre that probably cost about $250k. he is very successful in a very good job, makes tons of dough. he's probably about sixty now and LOVES LOVES LOVES movies. he can afford components and shit that i would completely balk at, but....
he know's what all of it does, he's compared this against that, AND he designed and set up the system he's got. he totally enjoys every step of the deal the same way we enjoy recording and playing music.
the point being, he doesn't covet this stuff at all. these are the tools he uses to make his "down" time everything that it might possibly be. to you or i, he may just be blowing money. however, given what he gets out of it, i think he's getting a hell of a return on investment.
that's the difference, i suppose, between the audiophile we would bash here and the guy who's in it for the right reasons. there's always someone in it for the right reason, right?.......
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soundguy
- ghost haunting audio students
- Posts: 3182
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- Location: NYC
- Contact:
Re: You weren't kidding!
I dont think that anyone would really argue that really expensive gear usually tends to sound amazing. Certainly not anyone that owns a Neve 80...
My issues with "audiophiles" as a generalized group is the herd mentality that many of those folks seem to enjoy wearing on their sleeve. Is there some rich dude who loves his stereo? Sure. One of my friend's dad once treated Ozzy in rehab and had him over to listen to sabbath on his hi-fi, apparenly Ozzy was really impressed, and this guy loves his hifi, good for him.
I think that for the gear head, Ive always seen the natural progression with whatever fuels the audiophile head to pull people towards becoming recording engineers. If you want a playback system that cost $100K, logic says to me you'd want to control the recording of what you are playing back too. so, Ive got this really judgemental thing where so many of these guys are only good enough to listen. And thats fine, but its always been a prejudice I've never been able to get over. Ok, you're not a musician and you arent an engineer, but you have a $100K stereo. Hmmmm. Ok. I guess that really is pretty cool, that someone out there just enjoys listening that much to drop trow like that, but my exposure to the audiophile world in NYC has really been pretty negative. perhaps thats for me to work out...
dave
My issues with "audiophiles" as a generalized group is the herd mentality that many of those folks seem to enjoy wearing on their sleeve. Is there some rich dude who loves his stereo? Sure. One of my friend's dad once treated Ozzy in rehab and had him over to listen to sabbath on his hi-fi, apparenly Ozzy was really impressed, and this guy loves his hifi, good for him.
I think that for the gear head, Ive always seen the natural progression with whatever fuels the audiophile head to pull people towards becoming recording engineers. If you want a playback system that cost $100K, logic says to me you'd want to control the recording of what you are playing back too. so, Ive got this really judgemental thing where so many of these guys are only good enough to listen. And thats fine, but its always been a prejudice I've never been able to get over. Ok, you're not a musician and you arent an engineer, but you have a $100K stereo. Hmmmm. Ok. I guess that really is pretty cool, that someone out there just enjoys listening that much to drop trow like that, but my exposure to the audiophile world in NYC has really been pretty negative. perhaps thats for me to work out...
dave
Re: You weren't kidding!
what bugs me about the audiophiles i know is that they appear to care about music, can talk a lot about a passion for sound, but it all rings hollow.
here is a quote from good old veblen's theory of the leisure class that i think explains the motivation of the audiophile:
This growth of punctilious discrimination as to qualitative
excellence in eating, drinking, etc. presently affects not only
the manner of life, but also the training and intellectual
activity of the gentleman of leisure. He is no longer simply the
successful, aggressive male, -- the man of strength, resource,
and intrepidity. In order to avoid stultification he must also
cultivate his tastes, for it now becomes incumbent on him to
discriminate with some nicety between the noble and the ignoble
in consumable goods. He becomes a connoisseur in creditable
viands of various degrees of merit, in manly beverages and
trinkets, in seemly apparel and architecture, in weapons, games,
dancers, and the narcotics. This cultivation of aesthetic faculty
requires time and application, and the demands made upon the
gentleman in this direction therefore tend to change his life of
leisure into a more or less arduous application to the business
of learning how to live a life of ostensible leisure in a
becoming way. Closely related to the requirement that the
gentleman must consume freely and of the right kind of goods,
there is the requirement that he must know how to consume them in
a seemly manner. His life of leisure must be conducted in due
form. Hence arise good manners in the way pointed out in an
earlier chapter. High-bred manners and ways of living are items
of conformity to the norm of conspicuous leisure and conspicuous
consumption.
here is a quote from good old veblen's theory of the leisure class that i think explains the motivation of the audiophile:
This growth of punctilious discrimination as to qualitative
excellence in eating, drinking, etc. presently affects not only
the manner of life, but also the training and intellectual
activity of the gentleman of leisure. He is no longer simply the
successful, aggressive male, -- the man of strength, resource,
and intrepidity. In order to avoid stultification he must also
cultivate his tastes, for it now becomes incumbent on him to
discriminate with some nicety between the noble and the ignoble
in consumable goods. He becomes a connoisseur in creditable
viands of various degrees of merit, in manly beverages and
trinkets, in seemly apparel and architecture, in weapons, games,
dancers, and the narcotics. This cultivation of aesthetic faculty
requires time and application, and the demands made upon the
gentleman in this direction therefore tend to change his life of
leisure into a more or less arduous application to the business
of learning how to live a life of ostensible leisure in a
becoming way. Closely related to the requirement that the
gentleman must consume freely and of the right kind of goods,
there is the requirement that he must know how to consume them in
a seemly manner. His life of leisure must be conducted in due
form. Hence arise good manners in the way pointed out in an
earlier chapter. High-bred manners and ways of living are items
of conformity to the norm of conspicuous leisure and conspicuous
consumption.
Re: You weren't kidding!
what book is that from?
Re: You weren't kidding!
http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/cgi-bi ... gutenberg/
free book! (if you print it out yourself) hope that link works, if not go to the gutenberg project home page and type in veblen. only book they have by him. it is one of those totally unreadable books that are quoted in undergrad papers.
free book! (if you print it out yourself) hope that link works, if not go to the gutenberg project home page and type in veblen. only book they have by him. it is one of those totally unreadable books that are quoted in undergrad papers.
Re: You weren't kidding!
thanks. I'm checking it out right now.
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biasvoltage
- steve albini likes it
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- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 9:23 am
- Location: Nashville
Re: You weren't kidding!
for $6500 I'll buy a Martin come over and play for an hour. Maybe two.
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thunderboy
- buyin' a studio
- Posts: 993
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:53 am
- Location: ROC, NY, USA
Re: You weren't kidding!
SoftSupply - can I sell tickets?
Hmmm...If I could afford to spend that kind of money on a stereo, I'd probably just pay to have a private concert in my living room. Or even build my own little private theater. Cut vinyl out of the equation altogether.
Cool! Now I just need the millions...
jt
Hmmm...If I could afford to spend that kind of money on a stereo, I'd probably just pay to have a private concert in my living room. Or even build my own little private theater. Cut vinyl out of the equation altogether.
Cool! Now I just need the millions...
jt
"most toreadors worth a damn are circumcized."
- Discs of Tron
- Discs of Tron
Re: You weren't kidding!
This guitar cable (Alessandro Instrument Pro) always used to piss me off:
http://www.alessandro-products.com/cables-inst.html
But I guess it's really a comparative bargain
http://www.alessandro-products.com/cables-inst.html
But I guess it's really a comparative bargain
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