Digital 8-track boxes: Any With Effects Loop in/outs?

[junokane]

I've been away from this board for a bit, hi everyone.

God, I got into a a/d converter and computer set-up and I'll tell you, I froze in fear at the learning curve. I admire you folks who want to alter waveforms and cut-and-paste edit and read all the manuals. I wish I had the aptitude.

Now I'm faced with the prospect of sort of back-tracking into something simpler and dummy-friendly. I've been looking at the digital 8-tracks, but there seems to be a leap between the ones in my range (say $300 to, God, maybe 800 on the outside) and the next step up after that in terms of what they offer.

On this thread, I'll address my subject heading, but i'm actually bummed about a few things about these boxes. This time, I"m bummed about the fact that they have filled up all these gizmos with amp and mic simulators, and "mastering" effects, and all kinds of crap like that out the ol' wazzoo.

I just don't trust 'em. I liked my 4-track with the effects send/return loop.

Maybe they are ok, some of them, but I'd rather mic an amp and do it the old-fashioned way, and I want to get a tube pre anyhow, and maybe a compressor, finally.

--Are there any of these things I've missed that have an actual effects loop? --Also, can you simply bypass the on-board effects on these things?
--And, if I run a pre-amp into an input on these boxes, will the on-board pre-amp color the sound all to crap anyway?

All I really need is a unit that can record 2 or 4 tracks at once, tops; I really wish I had a digital equivalent to a Tascam 688 cassette. Why even go digital? I'd like to have the "no generation loss" aspect for bouncing, and storing to a digital format (hard drive or cd) is nice.

I'm sure there are things I'm completely ignorant of here, so enlighten me, and thanks for yer help in advance.

FYI--I've been paying attention to these models so far:

Fostex MR-8, Boss BR-8, Yamaha AW16G, Fostex VF-80, Tascam 788. Boss BR 864, and a couple others. Oh help.

Bob

[z.a.]

i used a roland vs880 back when it came out & i'm pretty sure
there's a way to run an effects loop, though i'm not positive it's wired
exactly to do so, you can make it happen with routing.
though my favorite feature of that machine was the FX chip,
the amp modeling particularly & you get some heavy chaining
& editing options in these effects.
i'm sure one of those used with the chip is in the low end of your range.

[Brian Brock]

A lot of the digital multitrack crapola machines have effects loops, but none (tell me if you know of one!) have inserts. There was a thread a while back. It should be here:

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Some useful ideas from Wardshorsehead there.

[super skoda]

I have a Roland VS 880 and I know that it has two Aux sends and I think it has two returns (it may only have one). It doesn't have any nobs to controll the Aux send level. Instead, you have to go pretty deep into the menuing system to find the controlls.

I haven't used that thing for a while but I really liked it when I was using it. The pre-amps sucked but the effects sounded pretty good to my ears.

[object88]

A lot of the digital multitrack crapola machines have effects loops, but none (tell me if you know of one!) have inserts.

IIRC, the Yamaha AW4416 has inserts. But that's a lot bigger than what junokane was looking for.

[junokane]

Thanks for the thread url and all the help. The Yamaha AW4416 is outta sight $-wise, but it's good to know. I guess I can hunt around for a used one cheap, too, you never know. 16 tracks is a lot for what I need, and space is an issue for me, but eh, you gotta keep your options open, right?

As long as there are some folks reading this thread now, another question:

I really don't like the idea of saving to flash memory cards -- seems ridiculous to spend $130 on what's basically a pricy cassette tape (sure it's digital, but it only holds what, like 10 mins of music?). That's why I'm not hot on the models without hard drives. BUT can I dump everything on an external HD straight from the digital out?

Keep the good news coming, on both questions, and thanks again.

[Electricide]

question: are you talking A/D as in microphone straight to a digital storage format? Or are you wanting to run your analog multi-track into a digital mixer?

[object88]

Thanks for the thread url and all the help. The Yamaha AW4416 is outta sight $-wise, but it's good to know. I guess I can hunt around for a used one cheap, too, you never know. 16 tracks is a lot for what I need, and space is an issue for me, but eh, you gotta keep your options open, right?

Actually, I'm really not a fan of the AW4416. I bought one from Guitar Center to record an album on, and returned it after I was done. I felt that it was really lacking in certain aspects-- it was very difficult to do precise cuts, and switching between edit and playback mode can be VERY slow. The price-to-pain ratio didn't balance out. OTOH, that was at least a year and a half ago; perhaps there have been OS updates.

I really don't like the idea of saving to flash memory cards -- seems ridiculous to spend $130 on what's basically a pricy cassette tape (sure it's digital, but it only holds what, like 10 mins of music?). That's why I'm not hot on the models without hard drives.

Have you considered MiniDisc? I don't know about the sound quality, but that might be an option. I'm guessing it would work like cassette.

BUT can I dump everything on an external HD straight from the digital out?

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is no, you cannot go straight from a digital out (SPD/IF, etc.) on any ol' device and go into an external HD. To do that, you'd need something like a Masterlink, which is out of the budget.

[junokane]

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is no, you cannot go straight from a digital out (SPD/IF, etc.) on any ol' device and go into an external HD. To do that, you'd need something like a Masterlink, which is out of the budget.

Ok. What about if there was a USB out or Firewire? Which brings up another ? -- are all these boxes generally Mac compatible as well as PC?

[junokane]

question: are you talking A/D as in microphone straight to a digital storage format? Or are you wanting to run your analog multi-track into a digital mixer?

Hmmn. First question: definitely not, as I understand yr question.
Second question: again, no, I think.

What I'm talking about is that many of the digital 8 to 16 track all-in-one boxes have a digital out of some sort (USB or otherwise). So instead of having to save everything onto super-expensive FlashMemory cards that hold very little in track minutes, can I hook up an external HD (you can get 20 or 50 GB ones for little more than one big flashmemory card) to the box via a digital out port (USB or Firewire, I guess) and store stuff that way?

Right now, I don't have either an analog multi-track or a digital mixer. I have a MOTU 828 bundled with Audio Desk software, and it's just too much for my little noggin' to handle. I guess I could get into it eventually, but the learning curve really stalls my creativity and kind of makes me whimper when I get too close to it. Also, with the computer set-up, it takes up too much room. That's why I'm nosing around for an all-in-one that doesn't suck.

For what it's worth, I've gotten a lot of good info just by reading threads from folks who have them. I'd really like to be able to have an effects send/return loop, if available, though. I guess I'm showing ignorant prejudice against internal effects and simulators in these things, since I've never heard them, but I'm skeptical anyway. I'm afraid that doing EVERYTHING in the box will just be too sterile. I'd like a tube or two in the chain somewhere, or at least some damn ambiant air and the sound of my lil' amp.

Thanks for posting though, this is all really good for me, always learning.

[Electricide]

i think most all in one boxes have serial or parallel ports, (or SCSI or usb or firewire), for using external hard drives. You seem to think that you have to transfer your audio data as audio onto a hard drive. A hard drive by itself isn't going to recognize a spdif or AES signal. The hard drive stores the audio as pure data. a 16 track song at 24/48 should only take up about a gig of drive space.

SCSI drives handle more throughput than usb and firewire drives, if you're talking about doing your project straight off the disk. If you're just using the external drive to back up your projects, then firewire or usb will work fine.

If you're talking about a medium to store you 2-mix, hell get an ipod.

[Electricide]

reading back it sounds like you just want a digital 8 track machine that you can use your gear with. Straight up recorders usually just have ins and outs. If you want to have inserts, faders, aux sends etc, then an all in one box is better. maybe a digital portastudio ?
Problem is I think you'll find the limitations of this box very quickly, and in a year wish you had saved up for something else

[junokane]

reading back it sounds like you just want a digital 8 track machine that you can use your gear with. Straight up recorders usually just have ins and outs. If you want to have inserts, faders, aux sends etc, then an all in one box is better. maybe a digital portastudio ?
Problem is I think you'll find the limitations of this box very quickly, and in a year wish you had saved up for something else

Yeah. I do want the faders, etc., I'm used to a 4-track, and as I said, the possibilities and variations and manuals and stuff on my MOTU just leaves me limp. I guess I actually need some limitations in order to get anything finished. Anyway, the Tascam you offer up is the kind of thing I'm into getting. I wonder why you say that in a year I'll wish I'd gone up a notch -- remember, I'm just a home-recording guy who tracks alone, or maybe with a hand from some better musician I can bribe, I'm in a small space (tiny bedroom), and I seem to freeze up under too much information (the learning-curve curse). I'm interested in hearing from you or anybody else what I'd likely find limiting about a good all-in-one 8-track. What would the next step up be? The same thing only 16 tracks (my answer: I can bounce digitally, and I don't plan on mic-ing up drums)? A hard disk recorder and separate mixer (MA: I don't have room, and the curse again)? An analog set-up (MA: I'd love this, but I don't tinker much; room issues again, portability, and again, I'm dumb)? I'm not trying to provoke, I really want to know. Maybe there's something out there that might be worth saving for that I don't know about.

Re: the external HD question, I'm just trying to stay away from having to keep my masters on little bitty flash cards that I'd likely lose, and they are expensive. If I can rig it up, I'd like to be able to use another source for raw track master storage and bypass the flash card thing. Shit, maybe I just need to get a better unit that at least has a decent sized internal drive.

Again, I really appreciate the help.

[Electricide]

the tascams are great for your setup. well, at least they seem to be. i've not used one. But since there aren't a ton of features, you'll probably use it to its capacity within that time. Once people get comfortable with what they have, they usually seek more. I wish I could edit better, or do loops, or that it had better eq, direct outs, etc. If you're cool with what it is, then it's a good buy

what resloution master are we talking. red book 16/44.1 or higher res?

[TheStevens]

I wouldn't want to record on those crappy little flash cards either! If I had 8 or 9 hundred bucks right now, I would buy a Fostex VF-160. (The 16 track version of the VF80) It has a 20 gig hard drive, and also a built-in CD burner, which is really good for backing up your tracks (you dont have to worry about connecting to anything), not to mention being able to record, mix, and burn your final product all in one box. I don't think the vf-80 comes with a cd drive unless you pay extra.
As far as backing up to an external hard drive, doesn't your 828 have a firewire port as well as digital ins? I don't have any experience with it, but I would think that you would be able to connect the digital output of whatever you're recording on to the 828, then connect the hard drive to the 828 via firewire. Or does it not work that way?

-steve