learning to play guitar better... with $0

[tenaciousjay]

but what i don't understand... is why it's so important to learn other people's music in order to play my own and play it well?

there are so many times in which i have this amazingly perfect melody in my head, and it takes me all day to figure out how to play it on guitar. that's just sad.

You answered your own question! Learning a bunch of other people's songs helps your ears immensly. You'll be more able to hear a line in your head and have a good idea of how it goes on the guitar. The downside is that you can get stuck in the ruts of the road of cliched riffs. But at the same time, if you know where the ruts are you can choose to take a different route instead. If I was going that way I'd record myself singing those melodies and then try to learn that on the guitar, then try to figure out the chords behind that. Also singing what you play as you play it can help a lot, try that as well.

[wing]

* Wing- I don't particularly feel that sorry for you. Drummers rag on me all the time for not "automatically" picking up rhythms in practice. I have to usually sit at home and practice the hell out of a rhythm sequence until I get it right (and sometimes, I need a recorded passage to help me). And I do it, even though it's not a natural strength of mine. You'll have to do the same thing for melodies and chord changes. Just shut up and practice- no short cuts. [End tough love rant]

thanks, but i do practice, every day. every chance i get. i wasn't looking for short cuts, so much as suggestions for things to work on that will help improve. when you don't have a teacher, it's kinda hard to figure these things out on your own.

and i don't want anyone to feel sorry for me... they shouldn't. i just want people to suggest any ideas that have helped them and may help me.

thanks for the rest of your comments.

[wing]

By the way, I sympathize with the point of your initial post. What I've found in the past is when I hit a dead patch in progress, I switch instruments for a while (like a week, a month maybe) then come back. This will jar your thinking and get you out of the rut. When you come back to the first instrument (guitar in this case) you'll find you approach it a little differently and your playing is a little better. That's been my experience anyway, especially going from sax to guitar and back.

yea, i totally agree... it's like learning languages. the more languages you learn, the better you'll get at all of them. i speak japanese, and once i started learning italian, my japanese improved a lot too! it's just that these things help open your mind to a greater understanding of how things work and how they are done... i believe it's the same thing for music, and really anything there is to learn.

[wing]

everyone, you are all so helpful and inspiring. i can't wait to rock guitar (uh, and drums) with each of you.

[ryangobie]

i'm a little late, but i'll throw down my thoughts, i might just be restating what others have said in this, but i just skimmed through it...

i think the first thing you need to decide is how far do you want to go...learning some of this gets to be a headache sometimes...i've been taking lessons for 10 years and lord knows some of it made me want to just snap my neck in half.

the pentatonic is probably the easiest place to start. learn all 5 patterns and where the roots lie on each...if you only know pattern 1 and you're playing a progression from A root you're gonna have to jump around from the chord progression to your noodling. instead of just saying, wow, pattern 4 lies right here.

knowing what notes like in whatever pentatonic your using isn't so necessary. you have a pattern and you know where the pattern lies...just go at it...improving chords is a little different from this...first you need to know what mode you're in and what qualities the surrounding chords have...granted, you can just do it without talking about any notes in particular, but i find that i take note of where i am with this a little more...

but once you have your 5 pentatonic patterns down you will probably want to learn the arpeddgios for each and then what major scale patterns fall within each.

once you can noodle around with this then you might consider moving up to 4 note chords, which changes which pentatonics you'll use because you'll get clashes between minor 2nds and such...and then to 5 note chords

as far as speed and being really tight...a metronome is crucial...you can probably download one...i'd start with doing hammers and pulls of the various major scale patterns...just to concentrate on your left hand...make it real tight and strong and even...then start trying to pick it at a slower speed...tighten up your right hand...

i could probably go on...if you want PM me...i can learn ya the patterns and the modes and probably scan you some notes i have

[ryangobie]

opppsies, i should probably throw in my thoughts on learning songs since many seemed to have bought it up...i really don't think it's as effective as just learning a technique...although it may keep you attention better...granted, some songs focus almost entirely on a single technique...when i was learning tapping, i learned van halen solos...when i was learning sweeps, i learned that paganini song steve vai did in that movie Crossroads, errr...Eugene's Trick Bag it's called...i dunno...it can be a nice break though


but as far as just putting something on a jamming over it...alright, you may find something that sounds pleasing to you, but if you don't understand what you're doing, you won't really be able to work with it any further...

[kayagum]

* Wing- I don't particularly feel that sorry for you. Drummers rag on me all the time for not "automatically" picking up rhythms in practice. I have to usually sit at home and practice the hell out of a rhythm sequence until I get it right (and sometimes, I need a recorded passage to help me). And I do it, even though it's not a natural strength of mine. You'll have to do the same thing for melodies and chord changes. Just shut up and practice- no short cuts. [End tough love rant]

thanks, but i do practice, every day. every chance i get. i wasn't looking for short cuts, so much as suggestions for things to work on that will help improve. when you don't have a teacher, it's kinda hard to figure these things out on your own.

and i don't want anyone to feel sorry for me... they shouldn't. i just want people to suggest any ideas that have helped them and may help me.

thanks for the rest of your comments.

...kinda hard not to rant when you preface your topic with "... with $0". That's an invitation on this board for flaming, and given your posting level ("cryogenically thawed" - cool! ), you should probably know better.

One other thing- I think it's a lot easier to start with rhythm guitar and work your way up to playing leads. It gives you a good foundation, both in maneuvering chord fingerings (which is half the battle in figuring out scales) and in developing a good timing in your picking. Just like drumming, a good player has control and adjust the attack timing of the notes in relation to the rest of the band (or even an audience's rhythmic expectations). Most guitarists I see locally are lazy in their noodlings, and undoubtedly cannot play rhythm if their lives depend on it.

As I mentioned before, I pretty much played along REM cassettes for years before I tried to do anything fancier, and I'm glad I did. I'd say pick a guitarist that you really like (that's more about chords than scales) and play along the tapes until you can nail it in your sleep. Believe it or not, the two best music styles to start learning rhythm guitar (in my opinion) is punk and folk. If you're into R&B, practically any 60's band will work.

Have fun!

[Brian Brock]

that reminds me, here's a way to work on rythm guitar.

Basically, the foundation of rythm guitar is going down, up, down, up, etc (assuming you're playing with a pick, you probably do this). Then, you selectively mute or skip certain strokes, so:

down, _____, down, up, ____, up, down, _____

is the classic 3 3 2 beat of rock and roll.

So, pick a chord progression, or make one up, and treat it just like a drum set, where I at least will just go through different rythms, etc.

I just realized that since you're a drummer, the basics of rythm guitar is probably not where you need work... anyway...

[kayagum]

I would respectfully disagree- the way drummers need to adjust their timing is quite a bit different (and probably complementary) to rhythm guitar playing.

And call me simplistic and old school, but I'm not a big fan of upstrokes for rhythm guitar playing. The closer you get to Johnny Ramone, the better. The only exception I can think of is Pete Townshend's self-described "flamenco" flourishes on his acoustic rhythm playing (e.g. Pinball Wizard).

Upstrokes make you sound like lazy backwards baseball-cap frat rock.

[Brian Brock]

I guess I'm not suggesting as much that upstrokes are a good musical element (although I couldn't count the examples of good music incorporating them on a roomful of hands), but that by using your forearm as a natural pendulum, you can get a really steady rythm thing happening. Even if you play all downstrokes, you still have to come back up!

[wing]

...kinda hard not to rant when you preface your topic with "... with $0".

$0 because i haven't got it-- i'm in the red at my bank as it is. in debt. school to pay for. gas is going up. i have my money in too many other places right now to pay for guitar lessons... i wouldn't mind at all paying for guitar lessons, in fact i'd prefer to. there's nothing like hands on learning! but since i don't have the money, i could either ask for a little advice and go about my way... or the worst option: not bother trying until i can afford a teacher. but why would that make any sense? i'm ready to learn!

i agree with your comments on guitar and rhythm, but i have been sort of playing guitar for a few years now, as i've already said. i have gotten several compliments from really good guitarists and pianists when playing those respective instruments, "you may need some work on your notes and playing, but i wish i had rhythm like that!"

i'm not at all trying to brag, just saying that it doesn't apply as much, since that is something i've worked on for a while now.

my three biggest problems on guitar:
1) bar chords
2) forming new chords easily, changing chords quickly
3) picking/playing melodies on guitar-- i do NOT mean straight up soloing as many of you have inferred, but rather just being able to play nice melodic parts to the chords as compared to just straight strumming. that gets old after a while.

did i forget to mention also that i'm a short guy with small hands? it makes it pretty hard, especially to form bar chords... but i will not give up! ever!

[swingdoc]

Well, heres my suggestions...
1. Decide on a style you want to play. ie, I dont think you can "learn to play guitar". Try to be specific. ie rock, folk, blues, jazz, classical.
2. Get music from that style and play along with it, and I agree with the above suggestions to transcribe the solos.
3. Play as much as lossible with other people.
4. Play "live' in front of people if possible.
5. Pick up the instrument every day.
6. Practice with one or two very small goals in mind. ie one shift, one phrase, not "melodic minor"
7. Always think meolodies. (ex. do "happy birthday" or Little Bown Jug or whatever you can hum really well in which you know the melody. Then do it on each string and in different keys until you can play the melody blindfolded)

IMO, the pitfalls of spinning your wheels:
1. Being too vague as to the style you want to achieve.
2. Reading instructional books instead of playing. (actually doing anything instead of playing)
3. Focusing on scales or exercises.
4. Being too vague as to what you want to achieve each time you pick up the instrument. ie doodling.

Im sure there's more, but I gotta practice..

[ryangobie]

just wondering, i dunno if anyone bought it up, but have you tried bartering lessons...lord knows i'd love to learn me some drums...i'm sure there must be a proficient guitar player by you looking for some drum pointers...maybe you can teach each other

[wing]

IMO, the pitfalls of spinning your wheels:
1. Being too vague as to the style you want to achieve.
2. Reading instructional books instead of playing. (actually doing anything instead of playing)
3. Focusing on scales or exercises.
4. Being too vague as to what you want to achieve each time you pick up the instrument. ie doodling.

Im sure there's more, but I gotta practice..

hey swingdoc... i agree with most of your pointers. however, i would respectfully disagree with the idea that you can't just learn guitar without a style. i love everything. rock, jazz, folk, blues, i like a lot of different stuff from different eras. there is nothing i would want to restrict myself to. i don't just want to learn to play rock guitar. as with drums... i don't just have one specific style i am proficient in. i love all sorts of music, and it therefore reflects in my drumming to where it's almost a combination of all of them. i think it is quite possible to learn any instrument without any specific style in mind... afterall, my goal is not to learn to play a type of music, but just to play the instrument in whatever style i want.

on #2 - i don't even have money for instructional books. i haven't a single one. everything i've learned this far is either on accident, from a friend, or an occasional internet site. i would agree that you're right on this... playing is the most important thing. but i do play, a lot! i pick up a guitar several times a day and just jam on it. the reason i'm looking for advice is because i feel stagnant in my progression-- as if my just playing everyday isn't going anywhere fast. i just want to reenergize myself with some

again, i think the biggest problem really is easy chord changes, and being able to proficiently apply what i do in one key/scale/area of the guitar... to another.

i'm really starting to hate the fact that i'm poor & post often means to everyone that all i do is sit around talking and not playing instruments. but then why would i even bother being here? one of my biggest pet peeves in a lot of other people is the way all they do is talk about ideas but never put forth the effort to realize them. i'm probably the most direct person to work with ever... as soon as friends come over, i make everyone grab instruments and WRITE.

sorry, this is not directed towards anyone... it just feels like time and time again the sentiment from others here is "get off your ass, go outside, and get a job! then you can pay for guitar lessons and by playing the guitar you just might improve". this gets to me in that no one knows me and my life, no one knows how hard and how much i work, and how much more often i am away from computers than i am on them. no one knows how often i play several instruments a day. it's my favorite part of the day. tapeop is about the only website i go to, and pretty much the only reason i do is to learn and hopefully in return attempt to teach others and pass on knowledge that has been shared with me. i will agree the best way to learn something is by DOING, of course! but sometimes it's very useful (especially when you're stuck) to be able to discuss and ask questions. i don't have time to teach myself the meaning of some crazy terminology, or to figure out the science of electronics. i'm the kind of person that just wants to get straight to making the music.

capisce?

[kayagum]

my three biggest problems on guitar:
1) bar chords
2) forming new chords easily, changing chords quickly
3) picking/playing melodies on guitar-- i do NOT mean straight up soloing as many of you have inferred, but rather just being able to play nice melodic parts to the chords as compared to just straight strumming. that gets old after a while.

did i forget to mention also that i'm a short guy with small hands? it makes it pretty hard, especially to form bar chords... but i will not give up! ever!

Bar chords:

(1) if your hand and thumb are big enough, bar with your thumb on the lower 2 strings and the index finger on the upper strings. Probably won't work in your case (I can't do it either), but players with big hands can do it (2 examples: Hendrix, Bob Mould)

(2) Play open suspended chords that don't require a barre. Bob Mould is the god of suspended chords. Do a Google search for his tabs (his mailing list was obsessive about tabbing his work). Johnny Marr did a lot of that too.

(3) Play partial chords (e.g. the bottom 3 strings). Every metal player does it, and it doesn't become messy.

(4) A life-changing insight, from one of my only formal guitar lessons. When you play a chord (I'm assuming you play right-handed), make sure your thumb (behind the guitar neck) is not directly behind your other fingers- you should put your thumb to the left of the fingers, towards the headstock. What that does is that your thumb becomes a fulcrum, and you can literally use your palm to "twist" the other fingers into the fingerboard. It gives you a ton more leverage, and will probably give you the missing strength to bar chords. This little tip changed my life- I had a Yamaha acoustic that had bridge cables for strings, and I was finally able to barre for the first time. I believe this may be your impediment to barring and hitting clean chords after a change.

(5) What guitar are you using? Neck shape is everything. If you have small hands, I doubt you should be playing on Gibsons or C-Neck Strats. Even more important if you're playing on acoustics.

As far as melodies go, start with single note picking with a full chord fingering.... meaning, your left hand should form a chord, and pick melodies just with those notes. Over time, you can "add" or "subtract" notes to and from the chord, and pretty soon you'll ditch the full chord fingering. Trust your ears.