96khz and limiting

[spleenless]

I posted this last night but it was moved to the old forum. Here it is again...

When you reduce resolution from 24bit to 16bit you dither it. But what is the optimum way to reduce resolution from 96kz to 44.1?? Is it even usefull to record at 96khz if it isn't for DVD?
I'm also interested in vst/direct x plugin suggestions for a good transparent limiter for mastering. -Just to remove those transient peaks to boost the signal 2-3 db... Any good recommendations. How about the waves L2? Thanks for any opinions. cheers. jc

[heylow]

Man....you are asking the questions flame wars are made of!


Seriously....some of what you ask has been debated for PAGES and PAGES without resolve and, in the end, you have to just decide what works for you in your way of working.

I'll tell you what I think....but I'm just one dude.

As far as resampling goes....the only thing you can do is use a good transparent program that will hopefully not mangle your audio too badly. Most of the big guys are pretty good and you will find folks that dont mind downsampling as well as some folks who avoid it like SARS. I dont like to do it, myself. I feel that I "feel" some sort of difference in the audio that I dont like....could be psychological...I dunno but I dont like to do it. That said, I have found Wavelab does a great job as far that goes.

Whether or not 96k is for you is for you to decide. I personally dont feel the need. A lot of guys will tell you to go with whatever the destination sample rate will be. A lot of guys will tell you to go for the highest if you are going to be mixing digitally and using plugins. That said, Ilike to record digitally and mix analog through a board and outboard gear, and though I dont hear a difference between 44.1k and 48k, I tend to record at 48k just "in case" and since I will be mixing to tape, I will not have downsample so I might as well go as high as I can.

Again, this stuff can be debated and debated but all you can really do is use your ears....if you are happy with what you do ro if you cant hear a difference between 44.1 and 96k, then dont worry about it. The fact is that some people might genuinely hear it and then some people SAY they can hear it. Some people buy it cuz they are commercial studios and commercial studios have to keep up with the Jones's. There have even been apparent reports that some Rand D guys with some of the major manufacturers have admitted to not hearing the difference but put the stuff out keep up with demand. Then there is the business of the converters.....great converters at 44.1 KILL bad converters at ANY rate so thats another whole sack of worms.

As far as plugins......the L2 is a great plug if not abused. Also try the PSP Vintage Warmer, the PSP Mix Pack and the Blockfish from the Fish Fillets stuff. The Fish Fillets are free and AWESOME!

http://www.psp-audioware.com/

http://www.digitalfishphones.com/


I hope this helps in some way....



heylow

[markpar]

Heylow,

What DAC do you use when mixing to tape? I got a Benchmark DAC-1 and think it sounds freakin' great.

As far as the rest goes, I think heylow pretty much laid it out well. You just have to use what sounds good to you. I record at 48kHz since I mix to tape a lot and when I don't, the sample rate conversion of the Finalizer sounds fine to me.

-mark

[heylow]

Mark,

I'm recording to and mixing from an Alesis Hd24 with stock converters....believe it or not.....it sounds great stock. Its really the least of signal chain worries at this point.

You dig the Benchmarks, huh? I have follied with the idea of trying something a bit "higher grade" but I just never feel I'm lacking a whole lot in that area. I had a Mackie MDR before I got this thing and the converter difference was night and day to me in Alesis' favor. One of these days, maybe.....


heylow

[markpar]

I've read several times that the Mackie converters aren't particularly good. I'd like to try some external converters and see if they are any better. Of course I don't hear anything too bad right now, so I'm probably OK.

-mark

[cassembler]

The best converters I've ever used are the RADAR II's stock converters... very yummy.

L2 is a behemoth of greatness, kind of like a good bag of candy... Eat too much and you'll get diabetes and die; have one or two bites, yum yum yum.

For a cheaper version, a guy named Dave Brown makes a decent $30 DirectX limiter at http://www.directxfiles.com/manufacture ... wn_dbl.htm.

I used it for a couple of years before I could afford the Waves, and it was really quite effective.[/url]

[cassembler]

As far as sample rate goes... I'm going to be a 44.1 guy for a while, only because I'm (like Heylow) psychologically averted to removing one out of every 12 samples and then modifying the surrounding 6 sample ether side to spmensate... I just see that as... dirty....

But a good algorhythm can do that nicely, and 96 k will make the project's future brighter, if you can handle the space & processing requirements...

[markpar]

Yah, I'm planning on going back to 44.1 everywhere once my current project is done. When I first started out, I was in the "use highest Fs possible", now I'm leaning more towards the "use the Fs that the final media will have".

-mark

[Professor]

What did everybody forget about 88.2. The simple answer is that if you are working entirely in digital you will be sending the audio through alot of mathematical processes and you want to use the highest rate that will be the most compatible in the end.
If you work through an entire project at 16/44.1 your end product has a resolution around 14/38 or something like that in terms of what gets lost in all of the processing. (This is an estimate, not an exact number, but the loss is there).
If you work at 24/44.1 you end product after dither is around 16/40 for its sound quality.
If you work at 24/88.2 and drop to 16/44.1 at the end, you actually get a true 16/44.1 the way you might hear it going live to DAT.
If you work at 24/96 and try to drop to 16/44.1 you are butchering the audio with that algorhythm and you should have just gone 24/44.1 in the first place.
If you are mixing through an analog board you use the highest damn sample rate you can because you will lose a little in the D to A conversion and want as much data coming off of tape as possible. You also don't have the compatibility issues (though be careful if they might appear later).

The simple condensed answer is that 48k and 96k are for video projects or projects that will be mixed through analog consoles. 44.1 and 88.2 are for audio and the reason for 88.2 should be obvious - just do the math. I know that all of the marketing guys are hyping the 96kHz machines, but the fact is that 88.2 is on everyone of those machines for a darn good reason.

As for the compressors, use what ever sounds good.

As for the converters - yes Alesis has done a great job since the Masterlink project and all of its digital devices that have followed have great converters. Mackie - well, they sound like Mackie. If you really want to explore something better you should first make sure your console and recorder and cables are worthy - then check something like a Genex ( www.genexaudio.com ) since they are ridiculously good converters that cover every format from 16/44.1 to 24/192 to DSD.

For the record, I am using the internal converters in a Yamaha DM-2000 connected digitally to ProTools HD and running at 24/88.2 with a Lucid master clock.

-J