producer deals

[rodsher]

Hello,

I originally posted this in the "Producer/Engineer" forum, but didnt receive much attention there, so I thought I would re-post it here. Sorry if its out of place...

Hopefully someone can answer some basic producer deal questions for me. I realise there are plenty of exceptions to the rule and by no means is there a "standard" for producer deals...particularly on indie projects where better back-end deals are the norm. My question is this: When calculating a producer's points(let's say 3), what money has to be recouped before the producer starts to get paid. Say the recording budget is $25,000($5000 paid to producer) and then an additional $50,000 is spent on promotion, etc. and other post-recording things. Should the producer start recouping after $25,000 worth of records are sold or $75,000?? To put it another way, does ALL money spent on a project have to be recouped before the producer starts making money or just the money spent on the RECORDING?

Also, I know its common for producers, once the record is recouped, to get paid retroactively from the sale of record #1. How common is this and how much of a stickler should I be on this point in my producer deal? Obviously a small indie label is concerned about that period of time where they might owe the producer his retroactive point money and they have only just broken even. I want to be fair, but I also want to get my due.

Thanks for any help you can give me. I love the board...I'm a long time peruser, first time poster.

Rod

[jp]

Producer point deals can be structured any number of ways. However, unless you are a "name" guy with a track record of selling lots of albums, you will most likly get paid just before or at the same time the band does. This means you are at the end of the line. If the album should begin to make a profit, you will then be at the mercy of the label. Getting money from these folks is like pulling teeth. It doesnt matter how cool or indie these folks appear to be now.
Take the 5 grand (or whatever you can get) and make a great record. Working out points means hiring and paying for a lawyer. The day the points matter is the day you have produced a successful album. Better and higher paying deals are inevitable.

[junkstar]

25k budget and the producer only got 5k? Who are you working with? Does he/she know?

[kcrusher]

Producer deals are completely negotiable. My philosophy on this is to get paid UP FRONT want you need to feel like it was worthwhile, then work for as many points and the best terms you can get for the rest. Get a good lawyer to help with the negotiation.

Beyond that, there are no real norms. You might want to read Moses Avalons 'Confessions of a Record Producer' to get an idea of what the possibilities are...

[jp]

Hey Junkstar,...Heres a bit of fast math for you. We start with a 25k adavance. 2.5k goes to the lawyer who did the deal (standard 10% commission). The manager gets 20%, thats another 5k off the top. Lets be conservative and say the band has no outstanding debts. They only spend a grand on repairing a guitar head, getting new skins, strings and maybe buying a little new gear. If the producer agrees to an "all in" deal (meaning he delivers a completed and mixed album using his studio and his gear) for 5k that leaves about 11k. Now lets assume the record gets mastered for just 1k. Assuming its a four piece each band member gets 2k a piece. This is money the band lives of off for the time they record and tour the album. It seems to me the producer does ok in this situation.

[oobedoob]

Any deal that I've ever seen/heard of has producer royalties from record one. And that includes several all-in bundled deals where the producer owned the studio/engineered or partnered with a studio.

[Seventh Wave Studio]

You mean you are getting $5k for producing AND recording a FULL-LENGTH album??

FROM A $25,000 budget??

That is insane. I spend that much on expenses.

I work for 6 record labels, and even the smaller ones, with a $10k budget, I get more than $5k.

Man, two choices for you....

1. More up front, less on the back. Agree to get paid when the artist does, but you need like $8-10 now. Make the band go get a job at the coffeehouse during the making of the record. (someone mentioned each member getting HALF of what the producer makes??)

2. $5 upfront, but more points, and $$ from sale number one.

I have done both of these before, they work out. It all depends on how well I think the record willdo, based on their marketing and business strategy.

I did a record for almost nothing one time, and agreed to get paid dollars on each sale, because I knew it would do well. Brother, it sold thousands of copies in the first three months!

I have also done records just for a flat fee (usually $1200 per song for everything) and watch the record sit in the singer's garage in piles beacuse there was no money for marketing.

Every deal is different, but remember YOU are the one doing MOST of the work, and YOUR WORK decides how much of a success the record is. That is worth the $$$$.

[@?,*???&?]

To put it another way, does ALL money spent on a project have to be recouped before the producer starts making money or just the money spent on the RECORDING?

This is common as is the producer making money from 'record 1' or earning points from the first record sold. Depends on how you structure the deal. Think for yourself though, "How many records is this band/artist going to sell?"

In this age of everyone and their brother making a record, I count on money up front, not some vague, tentative backside deal. If it's a major label, go for $$$ at 'Record 1'.

[rodsher]

Thanks everybody for all the input. I'll check out the Moses Avalons book...