my rhythm tracks suck

[andrewstadium]

I am using Reason which is a great program but my drum tracks
sound way to rigid and dull. Even with great drum samples via
Drumkit from Hell.

Can anyone recommend some budget minded solutions?
What about:

-Drums on Demand? Cheesy or not?
-Pre programmed MIDI grooves?
-Cheap drum machines like Dr. Rhythm or SR-16?
-Reason Refills?
-Other virtual drum machines?
-Sources for the downloading of loops, patterns, sequences etc?

It is work mentioning that i am playing in the rock/pop style.
Just looking for solid 4/4 and 3/8 drum patterns.

[Mr PC]

Do you know any sweet drummers? Maybe if you looked into hiring someone for a day or two, your problems could be solved. I was in on an album where the drummer (he's really good) played to a pre-existing click/guitar track, and it sounded great, still had the human touch.

PC

[hammertime]

Check out sony's library for acid. They're probably the best online service I've seen. It's at www.sony.com or something.

[hammertime]

Here it is -- www.sony.com/mediasoftware

[theistheman]

I don't use reason, so I don't know exactly what you can do. Some suggestions:

If there's some way to randomize volume on your drum hits, just a slight bit, it'll sound more realistic.

If there's a way to humanize your sequences, where the hits aren't completely quantized, sometimes very slightly ahead or behind the beat, it'll sound more realistic.

[leigh]

Can anyone recommend some budget minded solutions?
What about:

-Drums on Demand? Cheesy or not?
-Pre programmed MIDI grooves?
-Cheap drum machines like Dr. Rhythm or SR-16?
-Reason Refills?
-Other virtual drum machines?
-Sources for the downloading of loops, patterns, sequences etc?

Not to come off like an ass, but what about learning to program a drum machine better? (and the corollary, Why do people always think that more shit is the answer?)

Get a book on it, or just sit down and figure it out yourself. Programming different velocities (volumes) is key to making drums sound unstiff. The Reason drum machine only has the 3 velocity levels built in, although if you use the main sequencer to run it, you can do whatever you want. But 3 levels is enough to get you going.

Also, play with the "shuffle" feature, which adds variable amounts of 16th note swing. Depending on the vibe of the song, a touch of this is vital. But some songs just want a straight 16th note, so don't automatically reach for this.

If you don't have the time or inclination to learn to program a drum machine well, I'd suggest finding a real drummer. Either that or build other tracks around the drum machine that play off its stiffness. That can be cool too.

Leigh

[andrewstadium]

Not to come off like an ass, but what about learning to program a drum machine better? (and the corollary, Why do people always think that more shit is the answer?)

Leigh

I think all of your points are valid. But it has been my experience
that getting involved with programming drum machines to the extent where I start tweaking velocites and such gets me WAY off track. That is, it becomes a detour where i get entrenched with microscopic details to the point where I have totally lost perspective. I have been sequencing for years now but I also like to work quickly. What i want is something more prefab where I can then tweak it to my liking.

Also, the point of this post was not drum machine vs. live drummer.

[leigh]

Alright, I hear ya. I don't like getting tweaky with sequences myself, which is why I either just work with a live drummer, or program something basic on a drum machine and gussy it up with live shakers, hihat, whatever.

Here's a VSTi I recently played with that might facilitate a quicker workpace, it's Steinberg's Groove Agent:

http://www.macmusic.org/softs/view.php/lang/EN/id/1556/

It's got a chronologically-sorted "style" slider, and also a "complexity" slider, to determine how much it's going to mix it up on its own. So, yes, pre-fab, but with a greater degree of control than most.

Cheers,
Leigh

[andrewstadium]

yeah. groove agent. that is sort of what i am talking about.
a friend just recommended it to me today. i am going to try out the demo tonight.

[joel hamilton]

In reason, I just cut stuff wrong on purpose in recycle to get my loops to lilt a little, or I will just program by hand, and not quantize the crap out of the hi hat I played, ya know? Quantize the kick and snare, then play a hat part and only quantize it 25% or whatever ya want, but it can be pretty amazing what you get. I also assign (midi "learn" rules) the mod wheel to the sample length on a hat sample and "play" the open closed hat. Use a longer hat sample and just adjust the length with the mod wheel. Amazingly real half hat and variation that way. Even if you quantize that performance, it doesnt kill the modwheel "feel" of the hat. Even just moving a touch in the right places makes the static hat sample come to life. I use this all the time for basic tracks or to give some pop type thing some groove rather than a click.

[antonlamont45]

i am not sure how reason works, but on almost all sequencers both hardware and software you have a swing function. try messing with that, especially on the hhats and cymbals. try using a small hh swing, like 54%. hhs are the most robotic sounding part of a drum part on machines.

also, as mentioned before velocity is REALLY important in getting a human feel. when you are playing make sure your pads are not on full velocity, that they are velocity sensitive. if you aren't a drummer then it will take alot of tweaking to get a "human" feel to drum machine. but that's the beauty of a drum machine--that even if you are not a drummer but have an ear for rhythm you CAN get a great sounding drum part of it with tweaking.

one thing that works great for alot of people is playing a drummachine part as best you can, then sampling two hits at a time, then playing those samples to create a new part. so for simplicity's sake say you play 8 notes:"K HH S HH K HH S HH", sample "K HH" then "S HH" then "K HH" and so on so that you end up with 4 samples instead of 8. Then play these in sequence (or not). once you have sequenced the part, start messing with the pitch of each ever so slightly. this will effect the timing (swing) of the notes, ie: lower pitch, K and HH farther apart, higher closer etc. this is especially nice if you can tweak the pitches while the sequence is playing. try it!

yes it is easy to lose perspective after hours of tweaking, but the results can be worthwhile if you stay at it. if you don't want to, then learning how to play drums or hiring a real drummer is the only other way to make your drum parts sound good.

[andrewstadium]

If I didn't say it before, I am trying to simplify.

[antonlamont45]

if you really want to simplify then using midi grooves might work best for you. i try to stay away from them cuz they're not very "original" but you can always tweak them a little to make them more original and "your own".

[andrewstadium]

To quote myself:

Can anyone recommend some budget minded solutions?
What about:

-Drums on Demand? Cheesy or not?
-Pre programmed MIDI grooves?
-Cheap drum machines like Dr. Rhythm or SR-16?
-Reason Refills?
-Other virtual drum machines?
-Sources for the downloading of loops, patterns, sequences etc? ...

I don't need a class in sequencing.
I need specific recommendations. What are some good MIDI grooves then? Where can I find them? How much do they cost?
Please help!!!

[andyg666]

try some drum loop cds. don't mess with the midi at all--just get some good loops of good drummers that are already well recorded and plug them into your songs. plenty of drum loop libraries out there. which tape op had a write up on several of them? recently i think. wouldn't that make things the most simple and easy of all? speaking as someone who does a lot of midi drum programming--if you don't want to get your hands dirty tweaking the little things making your drum parts sound realistic and lively, you might as well not bother with midi...