diy mixing & mastering woes

[schnozzle]

Axial, you're probably right...the reason I was going to shy away from mixing in the computer is that, well, it will be a long time before I can afford to buy the gear & software involved, and it seemed more sensible to rent something to work with what we already have. It's the old problem of knowing that, yeah, we don't know what we're doing, and we don't have the right gear, but nobody's gonna give us any money for this and we just want to get the damn thing finished, so it is what it is.

Someone mentioned mixing down to a cassette deck. Is this a sort of "worst-case scenario," or is it actually possible to get a decent sound this way?

[axial]

no cassatte can be cool, do any of you guys have a desktop comp? cos you can get a 24 bit soundblaster for cheap nowadays...

[schnozzle]

Trashy:

Well, I'm in Los Angeles. Eagle Rock, to be specific. I hadn't really considered asking anyone outside of my small circle of friends (a little Phil Ochs ref there) because (a) payment is an issue, and (b) I was trying to figure it out myself. Also our garage studio is really messy right now and it's kinda embarrassing to bring in company, you know what I mean.

But anyway now I am willing to fall on my knees and beg like a mofo. So if there's anyone out there who I should know about, or who is in a sharing mood, by all means do tell.

Schnozzle

[trashy]

Okay, LA TapeOppers/DIYers, prove yerselves. This boy needs our help. Who we got?

[audiogeek1]

I think somebody mentioned mixing to a cassette and then doing the same listening tests that you have done. This will tell if the crappy sound card is the big difference or if it is the mix that probably needs a little stereo bus compression and eq to give it a more mastered sound.

Just some food for thought.

Mike

[schnozzle]

Ahh. Thank you Mike, that is a good suggestion. I will do that. Yes.

[llmonty]

schozzle - I would also say it is likely your laptop card. I first started computer recording on computer with an IBM T20 - and was using the built in card. I thought it sounded great. Then I heard it against newer stuff I did with an RME multiface, and it was like night and day - no high end, lots of mush - like a blanket was over the mix. And the T20 had a GREAT soundcard compared to my current HP laptop, which the internal card is unusable.

[mattmlpdx]

Sounds like comparing the cassette mix to the laptop mix will probably help figure this out best, but I was also wondering if you are monitoring the mix on the laptop as you are capturing it. Meaning, have you listened to the mix via the laptop (headphones jack or whatever) as it's going down, and if so, does it sound good there but then bad as .wav playback?

[schnozzle]

Yes, methinks it is the a/d converters also.

I have an older desktop with a better soundcard. We had to replace the stock card when we plugged the monitor output of a Peavy PA head into the line in jack. It (the card) actually exploded, with little sparks and things. It was pretty cool!

So I'll try that newer soundcard as well.

Here's a thought: I have a tiny bit of experience working with audio for 16mm movies, since I took a class once in college. We used Nagras there--I know they're super expensive, but they sounded pretty amazing. Do people ever use those to mix with? I could maybe rent one of those.

[schnozzle]

mattmlpdx:

Yes, that's how we're doing it now; we're running the mixer's buss outputs into the laptop, then the laptop's headphone jack into the monitors. So theoretically we hear what the laptop hears. But the CDRs still sound wildly different depending on which stereo we play it on, and don't really sound much like what comes out of the monitors.

[mattmlpdx]

If you just play the .wav file on the laptop itself how does it sound? And what speed are you burning your CDRs at?

[greatmagnet]

I agree with trashy's last addition...I don't think anyone else has stated it as clearly. Professional mastering is something that cannot be undervalued but a lot of people myself included can't afford that shit and have to take it upon ourselves to teach ourselves, as well as get the best results we can out of digital compressor/limiter plugins as opposed to $4,000 outboard analog units!

But, I can say for myself that it CAN BE DONE and sound pretty good to boot as long as you take a LONG TIME to learn it. Trashy mentioned that the mastering process has to be approached with the idea that it can take as long as recording or mixing. In my experience, learning as I go, it takes MUCH LONGER to master correctly actually. Feeling out different compressor/limiter battle plans and then taking those mixes out to your car stereo on a CD back and forth over and over is a fucking COMMITMENT, but it gets better with time if you are consistent in your motivation. It may be frustrating, but I personally feel like I only know half my job as an engineer if I can record and mix but have to go to someone else to make it sound good on my stereo after all that work. So, I'm still trying to learn.

It's a bummer when music that sounds like GOD on your monitors suddenly sounds like shit when you funnel it down to 16-bits and drop it on your home stereo, but that's what mastering is all about...making sure not TOO MUCH gets lost in the inevitable translation/degradation that is inherent in going from high-res digital or analog to consumer format.

Still with me Schnozzle? I do ramble, but I have been and still am in your shoes to some extent.

A big part of it is just spending time with TapeOp and the message board and putting your hands on the knobs you have in front of you to really figure out what mastering is all about. I am not going to launch into it here BUT THE BOTTOM LINE MAY BE THIS: THE REASON THOSE LP RECORDS SOUND METTER THROUGH YOUR CARD IS THAT THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN MASTERED (compressed, limited, what have you) TO SOUND GOOD THROUGH ALL CONVENTIONAL SYSEMS. To that end a lot of you folks seem to be skimming past Schnozzle's point about how two kinds of input taking the same path into his computer sound card sound radically different...which I think is important. Your best-spent money may be in getting yourself a decent ($200) stereo compressor limiter that you can throw in between your 8-track and your computer just so you can see what happens to the signal once it's captured and burned to CD.

[schnozzle]

On the laptop, played back through the monitors, it sounds okay. I mean, it sounds like it did when we started mixing with the monitors plugged into the laptop, rather than the board. Doesn't sound nearly as good as when the monitors were plugged into the board, but there we are. We're burning at a mighty 2x.

[trashy]

Thanks for the shout out Caldo.

I stick by my premise that major source of your problem is lack of mixing/mastering skill.

I also think your soundcard might have (a big) something to do with it.

But now I'm wondering about the other end, but my knowledge here is VERY limited and maybe someone else knows - could it be that he is facing a balanced/unbalanced output problem? That is, could the record players outs (or the amp there-of) be a better match for the sound card than the output of his tape machine? Again, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but I do know that your unbalanced output from your cd player (say) will sound a hell of a lot different on your home stereo (expecting an unbalanced output) than your mixing console (expecting a balanced output). God, I'm neck-deep in completely unfamiliar waters and I didn't bring my water-wings. Help!

[schnozzle]

Caldo71:

You are now my best friend for answering my main question! Yeah. I thought the reason the LPs sounded good was that they'd already been compressed & EQ'd. And, surprise, my recordings haven't! So I thought that the compressor (or lack thereof) might be part of the problem. I do indeed think that I need to get one.

Ya know, it kind of surprises me that people will go to great lengths to record their tracks at the absolute most minimal, cheap-ass diy level possible, but will roll over and die when it comes to mastering. Is it just me? What do all of the poor folks with 12-year-old Portastudios do?