question about Glyn Johns drum micing method

[Al]

Set the height of this mic 2 and 1/2 drum sticks length or 40 and 5/8th inches.

40 and 5/8th inches? What if the drummer's got 16" sticks? Is 40 inches okay?

I printed it before and I'll print it again. "Nothing is precious." Here's Jack Puig on Glyn:

True rock 'n' roll is not precious. Glyn was very much against the idea of becoming anal over any aspect of a record - down to placing a microphone on a guitar amp. Glyn was like, "Whack it! Just move it `til you think it's right!"

I remember once, engineering for Glyn and spending a lot of time miking a guitar, trying to find the exact spot where it would sound amazing, because I wanted to blow him away. Finally, he said, "Are you done?" "Yes, what do you think?" "It's great. But let me show you something." We walked out of the control room into the studio. He walked up to the amp and looked me straight in the eye. Our eyes were locked, and he took his leg and knocked the mic over. And he kept looking at me, waiting for my response. Which was, in my mind: "You're a dick. You're an asshole!"

And that's when he looked at me and said, "Nothing is precious. Use your instinct. Use your gut. Mike it again and use your instinct." He was right. In two seconds, I had it sounding better.

As simple and mundane as that sounds, it's one of the greatest lessons I learned in this business. That's why rough mixes and demos are so often amazing. You're not thinking about it, you're just doing it.


Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

It would have been even funnier if Puig had run into the control room and pulled all Johns faders down, fiddled his e.q. and fucked up his outboard, "Ooh saucy!!" and said "Nothings ever precious Glyn, now use you're gut instinct"..

Al

[cgarges]

I'm sure Glyn would have made do. And Jack wouldn't be where he is today.

Chris

[tubemonkey35]

Actually, the sticks are 16". Hence I wrote 2 1/2 sticks as a guide as well, knowing that some are shorter. This is just a real good starting point. You can play with the height some albeit in equal amounts to both overheads. However the 2 1/2 stick guide is what's been used for this method. Sorry for any confusion.

SNARE: adding a snare mic if you need one thus turning the 3 mic setup into 4 - just point it's diaphragm at the side or shell of the snare. You can move it in or away until it sounds the way you want. However this does not preclude you from doing anything you want, mic it from the bottom or the top etc.. at this point it's to taste and always watching your phase relationships.

PHASE: Do be a phase nut, check your phase relationships all the time. If things sound wimpy when you add mics, this is usually the culprit.

-Tubemonkey35

[daaudio]

well, let me begin by apologizing for my errant diagram of your normal drum kit...Actually it was done by my web assistant, but i should have checked it more closely... However, i did Steve Smith from Journey one time, and he had a huge kit...cymbals and toms for days. It was very impressive how the g.j. method did such a great job of showing the stereoness of the kit. As Steve is totally incredible, and his drums sound great, so did the recording...what I found really amusing was that about an hour after the band set up (it was not Journey) we were about to cut the first take, and Steve says..."you know , usually they would still be working on my tom toms...." The drum sound took about 15 minutes....I imagine that no matter where his cymbals are, if you set up on Simon Kirke ( I Love Free) it's gonna sound just fine....and ill try to fix the diagram .....dan alexander

[daaudio]

in addition, now that ive read these postings in detail....
1)put the snare mic wherever you like it, as long as it sounds good...sometimes i add a bottom snare or "airhole" side mic

2) I also copped a limiting method from something glyn said in some interview ( I WISH I could have watched him in the studio) ...you buss the drum kit thru a pair of busses or aux sends, limit that mix and bring it back into the mixer along with the unlimited tracks.works great.

3) when you listen to the 2 weirdly placed overheads by themselves,the snare comes from one side and the kick from the other.you use the kick and snare mic to center them in the mix.

4)usually, the "overhead" (really a snare and ride tom mic) isnt way above the kit. just out of reach of the sticks works pretty well. the floor tom overhead (really not an "overhead" at all) faces across the floor tom and snare, aimed roughly at the high hat....

5)some guys insist they have to have tom mics as well.if the drummer isnt very well balanced in his playing, it can be helpful...you really cannot use this method on drummers who dont tune well or have buzzy, lame drums or if you are in a really terrible sounding room.in those cases, one may require more individual control than this method provides....but one great thing about it is that it takes such a short time to set up ; it allows the drummer to feel fresh in comparison to the drawn out all day setup ...(actually ive seen drum sounds take 3 days)

[tubemonkey35]

daaudio = Dan Alexander?

When I was about 12 years old while at summer camp they brought Steve Smith in and set him and his drum kit up on the stage in this huge cafeteria where we all would eat our meals. They introduced him, he got up there and it was so cool, he just went off. I'll never forget it because I was so into Journey at the time. I guess his atty or mgr or something was one of the camp owners sons; anyway, I just thought I'd share my little story.

Dan has brought up another great technique with regard to comp/limiting drums. I use this all the time and it's quite addicting. People often refer to it as the NY trick. It is so cool when you bring up the compressed buss faders and sneak them up right under the drum or original un-compressed source material mix.

[jakeao]

I just picked up two of the Oktava 319's. anyone ever use them with this technique?

I use 319s for overheads in this setup. I love the sound of 319s for overheads. They cut oll the sharpness out of the cymbals IMO. What I do is put the first one up over the snare as if I was going to do a spaced pair OH arrangement. Then I put the second one under the far edge of my ride at about the height of the top of my floor tom, pointing towards the snare. Seems to work good for what I do. I also bash the shit out of my cymbals and have no problems controlling shit. My drummng motto is "If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right " Anyhow that's my setup

[jasonlivermore]

I have been using this technique for overs for a couple of years now. Just picked up a pair of 4047's that work really awesome in this position!
My favorite so far.

Jason Livermore

[Slider]

It's funny that Jack Puig is mentioned, because he was the assistant of Johns that originally showed me this technique.

[Slider]

what's up Dan?
I worked with Puig in your studio.

That might even be the 3 day drum sounds you're refering too. lol

[sonixx]

I'm very familiar with another technique where one mic is directly over the Snare and the other is over the drummer's right shoulder (right hand drummer). Both pointing at the snare and both equidistant from the Snare and Kick. Is the Glyn John technique different?

It's not clear where the Floor Tom/Ride Cymbal mic should be positioned and pointed. Also, there's little mention here about equal mic distances from the Snare and Kick. Is that not a concern with this technique?

I read tubemonkey35's positioning, but his floor mic positioning seems to disagree with the diagrahms.

-kp-

[tubemonkey35]

Sonixx,

I do place the second OH mic over the Floor Tom thus oustide the drummers right shoulder and I do point it at the same spot on the snare as the first OH is pointing at. I also have OH #2 at the same distance as the first OH is from the snare. With a good drummer I get a very balanced image from this. I know others who tilt or target that second OH down some to capture more of the kick and Floor Tom.

This starting point for me is done so quickly that if I want or need to add other mics, the setup of those mics goes even faster. When I mix I usually get almost all I need out of those first 3 mics and maybe an added snare mic. The others (if added) are a safety net so to speak.

I will say I like drums raw though very minimal if you want to check out some of this raw-er stripped down vibe that I did check out:
http://www.sharelle.net you can hear three songs recorded during rehearsal and used for a gig demo. Just click play on the little mp3 radio I built.

[sonixx]

tubemonkey35,

Thanks for the link... Pretty good... was that recorded live?

I took a listen and my kit results are very similar to yours. I have moved the shoulder mic out some but never as far as the Tom. I'm gonna give this a try.

If you care, you can check out some of my clips using the shoulder position.

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=120390

Presently, for close up mics I'm adding Tom Bottoms, Kick, and Snare Top and Bottom.

-kp-

[linus]

Please note the small print:

a good drummer in a good sounding room...

That is the biggest challenge. Not which mic, which pre, how many millimeters from the center of the snare, blah, blah, blah...

I'm prone to getting caught up obsessing about the gear. I constantly need to remind myself that it's the performance and the original sound that matter most.

[sonixx]

linus, while your point is well taken, it's only half the story...

When a cleint contacts me, it's not about talent... the client is here... the client wants to record. In other words... I have absolutely no control over which drummer and the drummers talent level... I view it this way... it's my job to make the client sound better than he really is. My Skill + Tools = Results

I do have control over capturing his kit in my room with my tools. I have some (little) leverage (persuading) over his playing. So for me, 90% of the time the biggest challenge is not about a drummer's talent level. Good drummers just make it a whole lot easier. But the basic technical challenge basically remains the same.