music for adults that doesn't suck?

ubertar · Post by **ubertar** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:59 am

I don't think it's true that adults in pre-60s generations were a blank slate-- while music wasn't specifically marketed to teens, people still grew up hearing music, so they were affected by the music that was popular when they were teens (and younger kids) even though it wasn't directly marketed to them. Studies have shown that people's musical taste usually becomes fixed at about 14. It's part of normal brain development. But humans are adaptable-- we can break out of old patterns, with some effort. You're right to ask why someone would make that effort. They're not likely to.

While I can't think of an example of someone who suddenly went from comic books to museum art, I think it's safe to say that a lot of people expand and refine their tastes in the college years, when they're suddenly exposed to a lot of things they might not have as a kid. Not everyone goes to college, and not everyone who does takes advantage of cultural opportunities there-- they might go straight through business school not paying attention to much else (other than beer and the opposite sex). But I think a lot of folks set aside kid stuff and look around at other choices once they become adults. I'm sure you knew people who tried out a bunch of different identities in their teens-- punk, goth, hippie, whatever... before figuring out what fit them in adulthood. It's pretty normal to explore different things in the late teens/early 20s period, and that's when there's the most chance to be turned on to "serious" culture.

I didn't say Wilco aren't "adult" music, just that personally I find them kind of boring. "Middle-aged rock" is a very good description of what they do.

;ivlunsdystf · Post by **;ivlunsdystf** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:38 pm

i didn't really clarify earlier: i think the recent wilco albums are perfect examples of beautifully recorded contemporary MOR music. pretty dull stuff. totally marketed towards grownups. not my cup of tea though. the robert plant-alison krauss album a few years ago left this same impression on me: beautiful, very well done, but totally boring. stuff like this does exactly what MOR used to do in the radio marketplace back in the 1970s. it's safe, and just a little bit "edgy", and of no interest to teenagers experiencing severe hormone surges.

are you looking for suggestions for your own listening? i have encountered quite a few currently working bands recently that seem to attract crowds composed almost exclusively of 'grownups' at their shows without being boring or 'lo fi'. example: zola jesus. i have many others if you want them.

i can relate to your experience of rediscovering the joy of listening to music after a kid is born. i went through the same thing a few years ago. rediscovering cool stuff w/ your kid is great fun too.

Bro Shark · Post by **Bro Shark** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:45 pm

I'm a "heavy music" guy and I look to bands like Melvins and Neurosis as guys who kind of let the music "grow up" with them. I feel they take the basis of Rock (youthfulness) and shape/improve it through the experiences of age.

I have no interest in Wilco.

On a larger scale, any music that can be considered "timeless" will appeal to all ages equally, and can be enjoyed by "everyone." I think that's something an artist can and should strive for.

ubertar · Post by **ubertar** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:59 pm

;ivlunsdystf wrote: are you looking for suggestions for your own listening? i have encountered quite a few currently working bands recently that seem to attract crowds composed almost exclusively of 'grownups' at their shows without being boring or 'lo fi'. example: zola jesus. i have many others if you want them.

Partly I want suggestions for me to listen to, and partly I just wanted to discuss the stuck-in-eternal-youth mode US musical culture has been mired in, and look for some kind of way out.

Bro Shark wrote:any music that can be considered "timeless" will appeal to all ages equally

True. But things aren't usually recognized as "timeless" until a generation or so has passed. They've got to "stand the test of time" first. I'm looking for music that's contemporary.

I guess what I'd really like to find is something that blows my mind, which hasn't happened for a long time. Something that makes me say, "Holy shit. I've never heard anything like that before. That's fucking brilliant". That's what I strive for when I make music-- but I'm not sure it's possible to blow one's own mind (blowing other things is apparently possible, but you could really throw your back out, so I don't suggest trying).

I'm thinking about making replacement strat necks with movable frets so more people can experiment with microtonality. I don't know how much demand there'd be for that, but it'd be cool if it led to more music being made that I'm excited to hear.

JGriffin · Post by **JGriffin** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:02 pm

ubertar wrote:I don't think it's true that adults in pre-60s generations were a blank slate-- while music wasn't specifically marketed to teens, people still grew up hearing music, so they were affected by the music that was popular when they were teens (and younger kids) even though it wasn't directly marketed to them. Studies have shown that people's musical taste usually becomes fixed at about 14. It's part of normal brain development. But humans are adaptable-- we can break out of old patterns, with some effort. You're right to ask why someone would make that effort. They're not likely to. .

Okay, maybe not "blank slate," but your original statement that prior to the '50s, music was marketed to adults led me to that somewhat inaccurate phrase. Certainly they'd heard music before, but rather had "adult" music around them. Again, if you want to call the various examples of folk, country, western swing, jazz, localized ethnic songs and classical music that were swirling around "adult music."

And then, if folks aren't likely to make the effort to break out of what they have been listening to all along...why should anyone make or market any?

ubertar wrote:While I can't think of an example of someone who suddenly went from comic books to museum art, I think it's safe to say that a lot of people expand and refine their tastes in the college years, when they're suddenly exposed to a lot of things they might not have as a kid. Not everyone goes to college, and not everyone who does takes advantage of cultural opportunities there-- they might go straight through business school not paying attention to much else (other than beer and the opposite sex). But I think a lot of folks set aside kid stuff and look around at other choices once they become adults. I'm sure you knew people who tried out a bunch of different identities in their teens-- punk, goth, hippie, whatever... before figuring out what fit them in adulthood. It's pretty normal to explore different things in the late teens/early 20s period, and that's when there's the most chance to be turned on to "serious" culture.

I guess you and I have a different measuring-stick for "adult." As we're about the same age (I'm a bit older), and you're asking the question now, I assumed you meant 30s and 40s, not 20-something just out of college. I'm not sure that qualifies as "adult" in the context you're creating, especially in the culture that doesn't want anyone to grow up. Statistically, people are postponing marriage, kids, mortgages and all manner of "grown-up" things years longer than they did in the '60s and '70s, so while their tastes may expand, I don't know that they're jettisoning the teen musical tastes for anything radically "adult" in their 20s. If anything --and taking my own experience as a guide for a moment-- there are more than just those two phases: teen tastes give way to college-age and slightly-after tastes, which then give way to other tastes moving into the 30s and beyond. Which "adulthood" are we talking about?

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:11 pm

I once walked out of a Wilco concert before it was half over, top that.

JGriffin · Post by **JGriffin** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:16 pm

joelpatterson wrote:I once walked out of a Wilco concert before it was half over, top that.

The band had checked out halfway through the first song.

Gregg Juke · Post by **Gregg Juke** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:17 pm

Just lurking in this thread for quite awhile has brought me to a couple of observations/conclusions (take or leave them as you please, no hard feelings):

*I've always hated the term "serious music," which is generally applied to Classical, btw. As if Bach is intrinsically "more serious" than Coltrane...

*I submit that if you are able to sweep away all traditional and contemporary Classical music, all Jazz, all World music, and all Pop & Rock with a few fleeting sentences, your search for "adult music" may be in vain. I also submit that perhaps the problem isn't with the music...

GJ

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:32 pm

dwlb wrote:
joelpatterson wrote:I once walked out of a Wilco concert before it was half over, top that.
The band had checked out halfway through the first song.

There was some kind of deep and transcendent repulsion going on, I'm not even sure I can describe it... the ideas "fraudulence" and "betrayal" and "roping in a bunch of goddam suckers who don't seem to know any better" danced in my head... I mean, if we needed an example of a band "puking some stuff up," there's my nominee...

ubertar · Post by **ubertar** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:35 pm

Gregg Juke wrote:*I've always hated the term "serious music," which is generally applied to Classical, btw. As if Bach is intrinsically "more serious" than Coltrane...

Got a better term? I'm not using it that way, though... I definitely consider Coltrane to be serious music, whether you're talking about John or Alice.

Gregg Juke wrote:*I submit that if you are able to sweep away all traditional and contemporary Classical music, all Jazz, all World music, and all Pop & Rock with a few fleeting sentences, your search for "adult music" may be in vain. I also submit that perhaps the problem isn't with the music...

I don't know what you mean by "sweep away" here... I listen to tons of that stuff, and said as much earlier in this thread. There seems to be a miscommunication here. I'm looking for new music outside of what I usually listen to. Classical music is great; I listen to it almost every day, same with jazz and "world" music (which is a crappy term-- as opposed to what, music from other planets?). I'm not so interested in pop or rock these days, but I'm open to something remarkable if it comes along. But I'm looking for something that's current.

What contemporary composers from the classical tradition are doing things you think are worth checking out? What's innovative in jazz these days? What's interesting in current "world" music that's not watered down and Westernized? This is what I want to know. I've got plenty of great music to listen to, but most of it is from the 20th century or earlier. What's happening now that's going to change music for the next 50 years or more? Who's doing something revolutionary, or just so freaking good it makes your jaw drop and your tongue hang out, like the first time you heard Hendrix or Coltrane?

ubertar · Post by **ubertar** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:03 pm

;ivlunsdystf wrote:zola jesus

Just checked out "night" and "clay bodies" on you tube. Night sounded very 80s to me. I liked Clay Bodies more. The arrangement and production were more interesting than the songs-- some cool timbres in Clay Bodies, particularly toward the end. The chord progressions are the same stuff we've heard forever. This is decent stuff, but not so much what I'm looking for. I'm sorry I can't be more specific-- if I knew exactly what I was looking for, I'd have had to have found it. Thanks for the tip-- I'm glad to be aware of them.

Gregg Juke · Post by **Gregg Juke** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:50 pm

Hey Ub,

Yeah, my comment re: "serious music" wasn't specifically directed at you, just the term in general. As to a better term, I think "music" works pretty well!

Or, any specific already existing genre that someone wants to reference. But the trouble with "serious" is that it immediately makes everything else second-class and not-serious. Even the Dr. Demento collection is serious to somebody.

As far as the "sweeping away," I went back and re-read your first few posts, and I may have mis-read them initially. But it did seem like you gave some genres like "World" music and Jazz a pretty quick dismissal as not worth listening to, or already-been-listened to (been there, done that).

I understand that you're looking for the next thing. I guess my take is, if music stopped last week; like, no more new material ever, we'd still have enough to keep us all intrigued with discovery for the rest of our lives. There are only so many sounds available under the sun; what's amazing is that we've all been able to make so much out of all that there is for so many thousands of years. So I'm suggesting that maybe "new" isn't even necessary; what about stuff you simply haven't heard yet from the last couple of centuries? I'm willing to grant, for academic's sake, that you may have had much wider and deeper listening experiences than myself or anyone else on the planet-- there's still going to be some stuff you don't know about yet, quite possibly from artists and genres that you may already know quite well.

I've been getting back into vinyl, and that has led me to some crate-digging, which I hadn't really been doing for years. Suddenly everything sounds great again, everything sounds new, even material I've been very familiar with. And the fact that I'm physically out looking for music has added a more personal dimension to the hunt.

I'm just suggesting that there may be more out there, from established artists, genres, and labels, that you may really like if you give it a chance. I understand the whole point of the thread was that you are looking for new music, but the emphasis seems to be on something entirely new that hasn't been invented yet-- new scales, new chord changes, new instruments. Go back to jazz, for instance, and set aside the idea that Wynton is the devil, and pick an artist that you like, but may not have an exhaustive knowledge of. Let's say it's Rahsaan Roland Kirk. There are probably 15 records of his you don't know (if you do, then pick somebody else). Then, instead of going to iTunes, go out and find where there are still physical locations for record stores near you, or record shows, or garage sales, and start to look for some of those things you want to take a chance on. You can often find new, great vinyl for $12 now, or used anywhere from .50 if you are willing to scour the right thrift stores or lawn sales.

There's always new stuff out there. If it doesn't sound like it's from Pluto, that's because it's from Earth, so there are going to be some similarities to things you've heard. How much each new thing sounds similar/different is one of the factors that make it interesting.

I've recently discovered The Coral, The Remains, The Daptone catalogue (I know they've been around and I slept on the whole thing, but see my post/thread on the subject elsewhere in this forum), and that Fiona Apple is a pretty good jazz singer(?!?). I've also gotten my hands on some import 10" 's, and it's been cool to get an idea of the development of some artists that I was already familiar with, but didn't have a lot of depth with (Sonny Rollins, for example).

As to "contemporary classical" composers (there's a jumbo-shrimp misnomer for you), I'm not the guy to ask (I feel a little like George Clooney's character in "The Peacemaker," when faced with a room full of Rembrandt's, mentioning that he is "a fan of Leroy Neiman"). But I do actually have an interest in some of the contemporary film composers, like Danny Elfman, Hans Zimmer, and David Torn. If you want world music that's "not watered-down and Westernized" (I like Lucky Dube and Tiken Jah Fakoly myself, but), maybe you need to get some CD's of indigenous West African drumming. Lots to choose from there, and the tradition is deep. Or you could try Japanese Taiko. Or Portuguese Fado...

I think if someone is truly "bored with music," they may not be listening or looking hard enough, or they may have expectations that are too technical in nature. It would be like saying "I'm hungry. Can someone point me to a restaurant that serves good food? But I need something that I've never tried before; probably something that no one's ever tried before, made with ingredients that nobody has ever cooked with... And not something made in an oven. I want something entirely new. Y'know what I mean?"

GJ

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:01 am

My god! There's TONS of stuff out there, it isn't all "new" or by "new 'artists.
John Cale, Ry Cooder, Bonnie Raitt, Steve Winwood, Rush (read the lyrics), Yes, Genesis, Almost every blues band, The Who (I know they didn't start out there), Clapton, there's tons of progressive stuff, different instruments, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/124 ... usic-video, you have to look for it. That's the problem with product market glut, 198,000 releases, your perception gets skewed that nothing in your genre is popping up.
I get arguments that there are powerful tools to find this new stuff that fits your taste in a sea of shite, but, I haven't benefit from them yet. I know it's out there, but there's no one making sure that it gets where it can be seen by people looking for it now. That used to be a specific job at a label. It took a few people to get it done but it worked.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:02 am

joelpatterson wrote: multi-slappa-dappa-whoppa-do drum guy who plays with them sometimes... I think I just invented and labeled a genre, right there...

Man, you've been so serious lately, I thought you were losing your edge, apparently I was wrong, and I'm glad about it.

ubertar · Post by **ubertar** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:54 am

Gregg,

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not bored with music. I've got plenty to listen to. I spend lots of time doing exactly what you suggest. There's always more to explore. The purpose of this thread isn't to complain that there's nothing good out there to listen to. It's to find out if there's something new and great that I'm missing out on.

I'm not saying I only want to listen to things that are current-- I'm saying I want suggestions for current music, in this thread. They can be Western art music, "world" music, jazz, anything*... I know where and how to find older stuff in these categories, so I've got that covered. That's what you're mistaking for "dismissal"-- I can find the old stuff on my own, and regularly do, so that's not what I'm asking for here. I already have access to way more of that stuff than I have time for, and that's a good thing.

I guess what I was hoping for out of this was to find out about something new and exciting that's going on now. Some new movement or idea that's inspiring people. This is one thread about one subject-- I'm looking for a particular kind of suggestion. If someone starts a thread asking for help choosing an LDC, are you going to suggest getting an SM57? Or complain that this person is dismissing dynamic mics? I said in my first post that I was looking for something new and interesting.

*I did say "serious" music, for lack of a better term, to narrow down the responses to things that are more likely to fit what I'm looking for. People can respond according to what that word means to them. I don't mean it be something rigid or elitist-- just trying to weed out stuff that's standard to a genre and new only in the sense that it was recorded recently.

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