Joy Division and atonality

[jeddypoo]

Ian Curtis was pitchy but beyond that his timbre was abrasive- the forced volume of a baritone trying to be loud. Clarification: Joy Division is one of my favorite bands.

Anyway, as someone already pointed out, he wasn't generally atonal. In fact, he was often strictly modal- either Aeloian, Dorian, or Mixolydian most of the time. In fact, the harmonic dissonance was often coming from the guitars more than anything else. "Atrocity Exhibition" is a good example. Totally natural minor melody, sung plainly, with a lot of noise in the background and a steady beat.

Anyway...

I find vocals are usually the weak part of most indie rock bands. Rarely do people sing with any character or personality. In mainstream pop, it's all about annoying, ridiculous, same-y melisma. For reference, some of my favorite singers:

Sam Cooke
Iggy Pop
Dion
Ian Curtis
Glenn Danzig
The Shirelles
Desmond Dekker
John Lennon
Jackie Wilson
Ray Davies
Bob Dylan
Black Francis
Jonathan Richman
David Bowie
Ozzy Ozbourne
Chet Baker
Kim Deal

[autumn_stranger]

When I read (in the liner notes to Permanent 1995) that Joy Division was seeking to find "indescribable beauty in absolute ugliness," it kind of stands to reason that Ian's vocal anomaly was intentional.

being an enormous fan of JD/NO I had the opportunity to visit Manchester in 2005 and I think that quote kind of describes the city landscape. A very industrial type of city (at least in the northern quarter and central areas.

I would guess Ian was doing the best he could as a singer with minimal training. I really love the drum sounds they got.
anyone hear have an Eventide H910? (i think its that model>??)

Nice to hear you made it to my hometown. It's a great city to live in and one where the I think the music is reflected in the landscape from the Factory bands to Elbow at the moment. Most of the central area has been regenerated now, but around Salford and Hulme Crescents (which have now been demolished) where Joy Division were based you can see where they got that bleak industrial feel.

I'm not sure Ian Curtis would have known what was meant by Aeloian, Dorian, or Mixolydian and I'm even more doubtful that he wrote with those rules in mind. Like Mark E Smith, I think it was more about capturing the spirit of what they had in mind rather than the perfect pitch. Joy Division themselves just wanted to be a punk band and it was Martin Hannett who, pretty much against their will added the atmospheric effects and keyboards etc that made them sound so unique in my opinion.

On the subject of atonality, I heard Stay by Shakespeare Sister the other week for the first time in years and it completely took me aback how unpolished the vocal pitch was, especially in the verse. A huge hit at the time and if it had been recorded today, it would have been tweaked into tedium - it made me think that the song was far better for its imperfections.

[jeddypoo]

no, of course Ian Curtis didn't thing with those things in mind and I wasn't suggesting he does. Most don't. And they're generally better off for it. However, it happens naturally regardless. That stuff is hard-wired into us on a certain level, whether you know the words for it or not. In fact, I'd argue the singing atonally is actually HARD for people to do because they naturally want to stick to some scale or mode.

Anyway, I think it was just a clarification of terms. People throw around musical terminology a lot without knowing what it means. For example, atonal refers non-scale or tone based music, not a singer that is off-pitch. Not to be a dick, of course, sorry. And I totally agree with you. It's the imperfections of pop music that make it great. That's why it's hard for me to listen to a lot of music past 1983 or so.

[Judas Jetski]

I meant "atonal" in the sense of being "characterized by avoidance of traditional western tonality." I don't mean to say that there is no pitch to the vocals, just that the pitch doesn't follow established convention. And actually, I'm glad you mentioned it , because it made me think of this:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Exene Cervenka (from the band X) used to be really self-conscious about her vocal technique. Her singing was received as being "off-pitch" in the press, but she was able to duplicate the same effect whenever she sang a particular part. So she took voice lessons. After taking the lessons it became much harder for her to hit the dissonant harmonies which came naturally to her before taking the lessons. She had to re-learn how to sing all her parts. Her voice was much "better," but she had a harder time making it do what she wanted.

[ott0bot]

Interesting discussion. I always felt that Ian was more concerned with lyrics and the actual melody was pretty much secondary. When the started they were pretty much in the punk category and he yelled alot. You can get by with that and it sounds good with the music. However I think as they mellowed out a bit an experimented a bit more he had to broaden his range. Which for him it seemed that instead of follwing the key of the music he just created his own melody within the song. His vocals just kinda sit there in the mix as their own force not neccesarily competing with the other instruments. I could see why they would have done some pitch augmentation and as you can hear many of the tracks have some kind of effect on them. Thats just my take from what I've seen/read about their song writing and recording process.

One newer band that sings out of tune on purpose or otherwise is Liars. I've hear them live and he obviously "can't" sing in the traditional sense, but it really works on the albums. (not so great live) I think Angus tends to write around his voice instead of making his voice match the song perfectly.