Am I being stupid? Compressors..

[NeglectedFred]

Can someone convince me otherwise, or lead me to the right piece of gear?

I dunno, It's not that I don't understand the logic of time controls (attack/release), it's just that.. in my own mind, it's a bad idea. I can't explain it..

Take drums, for example; in my little brain it makes more sense to limit the attack, bringing the transients to a level closer to the body of the drum, than to compress the body, and use make up gain to raise the amplitude closer to the attack.. Especially since those are the most variable parts, I'd like to get the transients more consistant. And isn't the make-up gain usually a cheap preamp, even on mid-range costing units.. That's an assumption I've always had.

I like the idea of the DBX 160's, LA-2A's, or even attenuators after a clipping pre.. I'd prefer to go the route of a limiter or compressor, unless someone can assure me that I'm not damaging anything by clipping my pre's..

I'd like to spend under $700 for 4 channels of compression mainly for the purpose of drums (not overheads). I'd consider a pair of ART Pro VLA's, but I just don't know how they would sound on toms, and would it act fast enough for the type of results I'm looking for?

A pair of DBX 166's seems like an inexpensive solution, and I hear they're nice for a cheap compressor, but there's that time crap again, and uneven levels of attacks.. DRAT!!! So, am I being stupid? Maybe I'm not getting something, here.. Help!! I think I'd rather buy 4 DBX 160's, but the cost is too high..

Also, I'm not really fond of the idea of a bus compressor (I know someone would recommend it).

[Mark Alan Miller]

Using your example of drums, I do both... limit (gently compress/whatever - depends on the song at hand) transient peaks and short duration variances in the attack of the drums, and use a slow attack comp across the drum buss (sometimes on individual mics) to make the kit 'pop' - It's all about your goals for the sound.

Some drummers are so consistent that "levelling out" their performance is really unnessesary, so it's all about tone-shapes. Others, well, it's just trying to get that damn kick drum to stay put where I want it in the friggin' mix.

[TapeOpLarry]

I'll try not to be an ass and be helpful:

When I track drums I never compress toms. Why? Because I don't want all the background sounds to get any louder (hi hat, snare, cymbals). Tom hits are not usually consistant bt if mic'd up okay will sit in the mix. The only element I usually compress in tracking is usually room mics. This kills the dynamics and then you can push the faders up to get room sound. I rarely compress snare. The player usually has a good idea of the dynamics as the damn thing is in their lap. If the snare varies a lot I might compress in the mix. Maybe. Usually it's fine. Kick I probably compress more than I think. Many players have very inconsistant kick feet. They hit hard, hit light. It sucks. So you compress the hits. But the real problem is the sound of those hits are very different. A hard hit is tappy. A soft hit is muffled. A buddy of mine makes the drummer do a series of individual drum hits post song. Then he will replace the too loud or too soft hits with the even ones. Not too much, just enough to ffix it up enough to then add compression!

As far as attack and release... All one can do is listen and determine what is happening to the ADSR of the sound. You can also play with the different settings while recording into a DAW and then look at what the A&R settings do to the waveforms. It's interesting.

All the best!

[joel hamilton]

I will say it agin and again:

Your ears have built in compression.

Using compressors gives us the ability to create the illusion of LOUD, or solid, or whatever you want.

Record. Compress. Use all of it all the time, or never use any of it.

That is up to you. The only way to learn it is to go for it.

Have fun in the meantime!

[soundguy]

Fred-

Im not at all getting the jist of your question, maybe you can rephrase because Im slightly retarded.

With midlevel comps, you are correct, most use a really shitty line amp and that is why they sound really bad, eons ago I went on about that on this board, good luck finding it. Most cheap compressors will use a utility IC for their makeupgain and often balancing and use a run of the mill circuit and thats what all those "cheap" units seem to have the same consistent "cheap" sound to them.

The big thing with attack and release, ESPECIALLY with drums, is you can completely ruin the groove of a song if you turrn the knob to the wrong place. I have a song that I totally screwed up because of this on the record Im doing now, it sounds like the drummer rushes and he doesnt, its me fucking up the mix. Lucky for me I didnt realize this until the record was finished, high five dave. There are some limiters that have fixed attacks, like a neve 33609 or a chandler TG-1 and their usefulness will forever be limited (no pun intended) by that. People talk about these as buss compressors and I just cant see how you can use a buss compressor with a fixed attack. Sometimes you WANT the ability to not hear the limiter clamping down, say, on your ENTIRE mix, sometimes hearing the limiter clamping down on your kick drum gets you Clutch drum sound, everything has its place and you need to fuck with this shit to find out what is right for your place. DBX 160's are another example of a fixed attack limiter. Another reason why I rarely use mine. It either works or it doesnt. When you get on the circuit level and understand how easy it is to add an attack control, it all gets very frustrating, but thats another topic entirely.

Anyhow, Id also reccomend flushing the jargon of "bus compressor" completely meaningless marketing bullshit. "Bus compressor" is just a pro audio name for stereo limiter. You can put ANYTHING across two channels, no big deal and certainly nothing specific about a limiter that makes it a "bus limiter" versus a limiter that doesnt make it a "bus limiter". If you put an 1176 across a bus, guess what, its a buss limiter...

dave

[NeglectedFred]

Thanks guys. I appreciate your 2 cents more than you know.

BTW, Dave, I'm aware of your comments about bus compressors, I said what I said because I figured someone would recommend buying one high-end compressor as opposed to four less-costing compressors and putting it accross all the toms, whereas I like the idea of idividual control - but I wont argue the fact that every one needs at least one kick butt comp. Thanks for you're info on the makeup gain.

OK, maybe I don't need compressors, because I believe I can acheive my ideal drum sound through limiting by clipping.

Can anyone please tell me if I'm hurting my preamps by clipping them fairly hard? I'd attenuate the output to protect the next link in the chain, but are there any negative effects on the pre's? Specifically Focusrite Platinums for now, but I'd like to build some of those SCA pre's and run them hot as well.

[Wilkesin]

There are so many things I love about this board. I hear things that i would not have even thought about trying (mostly because i am a serious low budget home recordist and dont have the equipment, but i enjoy filing away all those tips for a later day), but I cant help feeling a bit overwhelmed at times too....

Reading Joel's posts, and having once been able to see him perform and later be an embarrasing fanboy and shake his hand (which i know he doesnt remember) has really made me take his posts to heart, but the funny thing is that he is always never on a side. Which i have learned is great! To compress, To not compress, It doesnt matter....As he and Larry often seem to suggest it only amounts to how if sounds vs. what you are making the music try to convey emotionally....

That said, I've been listening to a lot of old Bob Dylan records lately and not the re-mastered ones mind you, especially "John Wesley Harding" and the drums cant occupy more than a track or two and they are hard panned to one side, but i LOVE them. I may not be able to hear the exact tone of every single kick drum hit, but i can feel the beat and Kenny Buttrey's feel comes across so well.....

So I guess this post doesnt go into compressor specifics too well, but it leaves me wondering, why should we even worry about it sometimes?

Go For the Feel!

[GT40sc]

Why do you feel the need to clip the preamp?

Does it make a tone you like?

If so, go for it.

Are you hurting the pre by clipping it? I don't think so...

On the subject of compression in general, I would say use as littlle as possible. Compression can be very destructive to TONE QUALITY, especially if you set the attack time too fast. I hate this fast-attack sound on snare and toms. Makes me gag.

[NeglectedFred]

I do indeed love the sound of a clipping pre on drums, especially kick and toms.. I certainly haven't tried it on every pre, but I like it on most of the one's I've experianced. I also like the way it limits the attack, giving the resonance more headroom and audibility. As well, I like the way it levels out the variable transients. Though, I'd go to all extremes to avoid cipping overheads and room mics, that just sucks

I have nothing but respect for Larry and Joel both, and I appreciate that they are so active in helping those of us with questions, and sharing their opinions while going about their busy lives. That being said, I think I'm gonna have to disagree with Larry for a moment about drummers knowing how to control the dynamics of the snare.. Granted, there are exceptions, In fact, the only compression I used on the last drummer I recorded was an ever-so-moderate amount on the overheads (one of those exceptions), but for the most part, I find snare hits are all over the place. Ghost notes are almost inaudible through the mix.. Is it my mixing? My equipment? Mic placement? Probably all of the above, but the drummers don't help. I'd also be willing to bet that Joel and Larry record more experienced studio musicians than I do.

Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I don't think there are many musicians anywhere on the planet who really understand how to control the dynamics of their instruments as much as they think they do..

Either wat, I'm just looking for a somewhat cost effective (more on the effective side) way to limit those drummers who need it.

For now, I'll clip away on my pre's, but when my pres die, I'm coming after GT40sc..

[joel hamilton]

I do indeed love the sound of a clipping pre on drums, especially kick and toms.. I certainly haven't tried it on every pre, but I like it on most of the one's I've experianced. I also like the way it limits the attack, giving the resonance more headroom and audibility. As well, I like the way it levels out the variable transients. Though, I'd go to all extremes to avoid cipping overheads and room mics, that just sucks

I have nothing but respect for Larry and Joel both, and I appreciate that they are so active in helping those of us with questions, and sharing their opinions while going about their busy lives. That being said, I think I'm gonna have to disagree with Larry for a moment about drummers knowing how to control the dynamics of the snare.. Granted, there are exceptions, In fact, the only compression I used on the last drummer I recorded was an ever-so-moderate amount on the overheads (one of those exceptions), but for the most part, I find snare hits are all over the place. Ghost notes are almost inaudible through the mix.. Is it my mixing? My equipment? Mic placement? Probably all of the above, but the drummers don't help. I'd also be willing to bet that Joel and Larry record more experienced studio musicians than I do.

Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I don't think there are many musicians anywhere on the planet who really understand how to control the dynamics of their instruments as much as they think they do..

Either wat, I'm just looking for a somewhat cost effective (more on the effective side) way to limit those drummers who need it.

For now, I'll clip away on my pre's, but when my pres die, I'm coming after GT40sc..

I record people of all styles and abilities.Some are well known, others not. Certain people "photograph well." Some dont. Some fight the process, some flatter it.

To answer your question directly: Get a DBX 160A and put it on the snare. Mess with the ratio. Make it sound good even with the thing just squeezing a bit much, back off a little from there with the threshold. Or not.

Get a symetrix 150 for really cheap on ebay. Set the attack all the way slow, and set to 20:1. set the release however you think sounds best. Make sure it is REALLY compressing by cranking the threshold all the way to the left. Send (on an aux) the kick, the bass DI, and the snare, and the toms. Dont put a compressor on the toms just yet at all. Make the CL150 freak out compressing as hard as it can. Dont touch the thrreshold yet.... Back off the ratio: things get neato. Put it back to 20:1 and let a little more through (if you like, sometimes I dont) and just HAMMER the shit out of everything going to it. Pan that straight up. That is the ghetto version of a sum/difference setup where you are compressing the shit out of anything that sums to mono, but leaving the stereo (Overheads or room) alone.

Put a little vocal in there, maybe even a little of the tereo backing vocals just to make them sum corectly in the middle. It will all "hold still" for you in the middle of the image, rock solid because it is limited to hell, but magically the stereo information stays intact because you dont have to compress it so much with that magic, mono aux comp smashing away. You also dont kill the tone of things because it it additive, not INSTEAD of the original signal. Of course you will need a little squeeze on the other elements, but this is a HUGE trick for getting things to sit right all up the middle. the more mono the element, the harder it gets smashed by your "center comp."

ANY compressor works for this. ANY. REALLY. any.

This is one long rant to prove this point again: it is how YOU use something that makes it cool or not. I bought my symetrix CL150 for like 30 dollars, and it has been on about 20 albums I have mixed. Nobody really gives a fuck what you use if what is coming out of the speakers makes them feel good about why they are there, with you ....

Using a mono center comp also helps you get over the "VU guilt" I find many younger engineers having. They sit there and adjust the 1176 staring intently at the VU!!! What the fuck does that have to do with anything???? It isnt even really telling you "how much" you are pulling back, because the meter ballistics are so radically not up to the task! Then they see me setup my primary kick compressor, and the needle kind of just stays far left (all the way) for the whole song except the breaks! BUT IT IS HUGE, and I had a guy ask me, "how come it doesnt sound all compressed?" because it is the right compressor for the job and the meter doesnt have SHIT to do with what that unit is impating on the signal.

I have even put the comps in output metering mode sometimes, just so I dont have the "engineer guy" in the band freaking out about what I am doing.

The piece of artist tape in the middle of my meter bridge says "listen" for that very reason.,...

Have fun. Record a lot. It gets easier and more fun. Really!!!!