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live remote mix help

 
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alschnier
gettin' sounds


Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 131
Location: new hartford, ny

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: live remote mix help Reply with quote

wondered if anybody had any experience w. the following:

we are revising our live stereo recording scenario. (we also multitrack from the monitor console - midas H3K > Tascam MX2424). we would like to run a matrix mix of stereo soundboard along w. stereo mics from front of house position. all 4 signals run thru API preamp & is recorded both to DAT & hard drive via tascam MX2424.

the issue is this - we need to delay the soundboard mix to align signal w. mics. since that sounboard feed is approx. 75% of the mix, I am concerned about running it thru a lame digital delay. we've considered an AMS. any thoughts on models? I know companies like Klark Teknik make delays specifically for live sound time delay applications, but again, we're concerned w. the integrity of the signal.

we used to do a matrix mix using mics on stage (414s facing audience), but the end result still lacks the overall balance & feel of a good front of house mix (ie. dry vocals, excessive kick or hi hat, etc.).
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Piotr
tinnitus


Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Piortland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

Why not record the board mix, and the matrix and stereo signals? Does your board have direct outputs? Then you could have more dry signal overall.
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Thomas Aquinas
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alschnier
gettin' sounds


Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 131
Location: new hartford, ny

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

we are. the idea was to have all 4 channels (2 board, 2 mics) mixed down to a stereo signal on the fly. the goal is to have a good source for official "bootleg" recordings w/o having to go in & mix down the road. that is why we are trying to delay the board mix to align w. the mics. the balance is about 75/25 board/mics.
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kayagum
ghost haunting audio students


Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 3468
Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

Does the MX2424 have an offset or track slip function? I know that my HD24 can slip tracks by 170 milliseconds. If you measure it beforehand, you should be able to just slide your tracks once after finishing the track recording.

You can align the outs with an outboard delay for monitoring, so you can hear the alignment on the fly without it compromising the input chain, if it's that important to you.


Last edited by kayagum on Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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audioez
audio school graduate


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

for your consideration:

rent a three way mic splitter; hire a music mixer who can get a great sound on the fly and can roll with any situation. The splitter will feed FOH(ISO), MONITORS(direct), and MUSIC MIX(ISO). That way you get what you want which is a good live recording.

Over the past year I have mixed over 50 musical acts/guests for broadcast TV. I'd say most of them get a quick sound check for monitors, which I also set up and dial in. Almost everytime I'm running back to my music mix position to quickly throw something together, wheather it's live to AIR or a POST TAPE. The mix for broadcast is performed on a 16x4x2 channel board with 4 channels of compressors and one reverb. It's not rocket science, you just have to be quick and musical.

Oh, and having a nice colletion of outboard preamps doesn't hurt either.
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kayagum
ghost haunting audio students


Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 3468
Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

If you want to truly be a geek about it, you can figure 13.5" or 1.125' per millisecond at 20 degrees celsius for alignment.

Or, just use the ears Smile
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Professor
ghost haunting audio students


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 3305
Location: I have arrived... but have I arrived?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

Hate to break it to you, but you are not going to be able to delay the FOH stereo pair to align with the stage mics.
The FOH pair is delayed relative to the stage mics. You need to go the other way.
The sound hits the stage mics and starts moving at the speed of light, but still has to move at the speed of sound on the way to the FOH pair, and therefore arrives later.

So delaying the tracks live just isn't going to work unless you want to place a delay on every sing channel coming off the stage.
If you are looking at covering this in mixdown, then slippling the FOH pair earlier to align with the other tracks would work out fine. But since you mentioned that you wanted more of a mix on the fly, then I think you'll be living with the built in delay.
But then, that isn't all that bad. Your direct sound is 75%, and your stereo pair will be at 25% and will have a natural delay. Seems to me this would add just the right amount of ambience and act more as a 'natural reverb' track. I would suggest that you keep that FOH pair within about 50' of the stage, preferably closer at about 30-40' so that the delay is heard as more of a reverb and thickening of the sound, and not as an echo or second attack. Try to keep the delay on that pair under 50ms.

-Jeremy
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fremitus
pushin' record


Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 290
Location: vermont!

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: live remote mix help Reply with quote

this isn't much of an answer, but i think that getting it down to four tracks is entirely acceptable, aligning them later is a very simple step and committing them to stereo from there may be another step, but the precision of the act can help to ensure the quality you are trying to maintain. anyways. have a good run... next stop. cleveland.
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